Format: Sound Plus Doctrine Podcast
Download SessionThis is part 5 of 5 in the series, “Shepherding Souls Through Song.” In this episode David, Bob, and Bob’s son Devon explore how leading songs are an opportunity to protect the church and be an example to them. They also share where you might start practically if shepherding souls through song is a new idea for you.
Resources referenced:
03:28 John Calvin quote: “Our Lord, to distract us and draw us away from the allurements of the flesh and of the world, presents us every means possible in order to occupy us in that spiritual joy which he so much commends to us.” (“The Form of Prayers and Songs in the Church,” John Calvin)
04:37 Alisdair MacIntyre quote: “I can only answer the question ‘What am I to do?’ if I can answer the prior question ‘Of what story or stories do I find myself a part?’” (After Virtue: A Study in Moral Theory. 3rd ed. 1981. Reprint, Notre Dame, IN: University of Notre Dame Press, 2007)
08:09 The Necessity for Reforming the Church, John Calvin
19:48 Gentle and Lowly by Dane Ortlund
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Transcript
Bob Kauflin: Hey, you’re listening to Sound Plus Doctrine, the podcast of Sovereign Grace music. Sovereign Grace Music exists to produce Christ exalting songs and training for local churches, from local churches. For more information and free resources, you can check out sovereigngracemusic.org. Thanks for joining us.
BK: My name’s Bob Kauflin, I’m here with David Zimmer and my son Devon Kauflin, and we’re in the middle of a series on shepherding souls through song, which I’ve just so enjoyed. Devon, it’s been so great having you here for this. We’ve covered how songs can help us feed the church, they can help us lead the church, they can help us care for the church, and so there are two more I think we can get to in this podcast. Songs can help us protect the flock and songs are a means of modeling for the flock what praise of God looks like.
BK: So, let’s dive in to how songs help us protect the flock. This is taken from Acts 20, where Paul is speaking to the Ephesian elders and he’s encouraging them… Warning them that fierce wolves will come in among them. So part of the role of a pastor is to protect the church, protect the flock, and we’ve said on previous podcasts that, you don’t have to be a pastor to have that heart, to have that sense, and the songs we sing can be a means of helping to protect the church, because we’re not the only voices seeking to influence the hearts and minds of the people in our church. So we wanna take not only the preaching of the Word as an integral part of that, but the very songs we sing, and Devon, we were talking about this earlier. Did you find that quote you were looking for from Calvin?
Devon Kauflin: Yeah well, I think there’s two ways that we… There’s probably more than two, but I’m gonna mention two.
BK: At least two.
DK: At least two [chuckle] Two ways that… How we… What we sing and how we sing protects the church. One is doctrinally, and so there are those choosing songs, the songs that we sing, they have the responsibility to protect the doctrine of the church, and so what we sing, it matters, and so we talked a lot about that when we talked about feeding the flock and singing songs that are governed by the Word of God. So there’s that doctrinal side of it. I love Calvin, he talks about the… This is the other way that we’re protected is the world is always trying to distract us and our flesh is always trying to pull away, and so Calvin talks about how God has given us all manner of means, this is in his forward of Psalter again. All manners of means to distract us from the world.
David Zimmer: That’s good.
DK: And how the flesh pulls us away, and he does that. And One of the principal means he does that is through truth married to melody.
BK: Oh wow!
DK: Because if our music stirs us and compels us, and so when we’re tempted to be drawn to the world, or tempted to press into our sin, music and melody, it’s an opportunity to be pulled away from that, and so we can protect the people of God. Since I’ve kind of probably butchered what he actually says…
BK: No that was good Devon.
DK: I’ll read what he says. He says this, he says, “Our Lord to distract us and draw us away from the allurements of the flesh and of the world presents us every means possible in order to occupy us in that spiritual joy which he so commends to us.” So singing is a means of occupying us in that spiritual joy, which God holds out to us in Christ, and God chiefly provides music for this use.
BK: Which I think helps us understand why often in church music, there is this attempt to make it beautiful and appealing and desirable and moving, but not always for the right reasons, and what you were just quoting, truth married to melody. It’s the truth that really changes people, and the music provides this vehicle, this delivery process that makes the truth that much more meaningful, that much more powerful, that much more impacting.
DK: And keeps it with us.
BK: Yes.
DZ: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And memorable. And then take it with us. Well, another way I think this protection comes is there’s a philosopher that he said that, it was Alasdair MacIntyre, and he talks about the importance of story, and he says, we can’t answer what we are to do until we first answer what story or stories we’re a part of, and one of the things that happens in our corporate worship is, we are building people into the story that God is working out through them to history.
DZ: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: And so we’re orienting, re-orienting people again and again to this story that should be reality-defining for them, rather than all the other stories that this world tells us…
BK: And my story.
DK: Yeah, and my story that seeks to define me, that seek to pull us away from who we now are in Christ and what we have in Christ by the Spirit.
BK: That’s so good. I was really encouraged, and I’ve not heard that quote from Calvin before, but when I think…
DK: Sounds like you need to read a little bit more.
[laughter]
BK: You so out-read me. Oh, my gosh! Three ways that songs protect us, and it lined up very much with what he was saying. We protect the church from the errors of the world by singing songs filled with rich theological Christ exalting truths, so that’s gotta be in there. It doesn’t have to be dense or complicated, but it needs to be obvious and evident. These are truths from God’s word. That’s… We’re not making stuff up. It’s not our opinions. This is what the eternal inerrant Word of God says to us. So that’s one way we protect the church through song.
BK: We protect the church from the vices of the world by reminding them of God’s holiness and righteousness, and purity and justice, and wrath, I think we talked about in one of the other podcasts. We need to sing songs about the fact that God punishes sin, that he doesn’t just kind of brush it off. Yes, those who’ve trusted in Christ as the full payment for their sin are fully forgiven, but if you haven’t trusted in Christ, you are not forgiven, you are a child of wrath. And if you’re forgiven but thinking God doesn’t care much about sin, all you need to do is look at the Son of God hanging on the cross in your place, to know how much God cares about sin, how much he hates it.
BK: And then, “Songs protect us not only from the errors and vices of the world, but from the pleasures of the world.” And I love the way he describes that. “By presenting Christ in our songs as dazzling.” Paul Tripp word. “And infinitely superior to worldly joys.” So our music should be beautiful, it should be appealing, we shouldn’t sing dull melodies or melodies that are totally disconnected with the words we’re singing. And it’s one of the difficulties of having a good psalter, because so often, you’ll just pick a tune and then we sing these amazing words to it. And it’s like, “No, the tune is meant to support and complement those words.” So our music should be beautiful and appealing, our words, our lyrics even more so, because we are singing in a way that’s opening people’s eyes to the fact that music is great, Jesus is greater. So, in all those ways, we protect the church.
DK: Yeah, I’m just one more step into the historical theology, 1543, Martin Bucer wrote a letter to John Calvin asking him to put together a treatise defending the Reformation. And so he wrote this treatise called “The Necessity of the Reformation”. And the very first thing that Calvin pointed to as being important and necessary in the Reformation was the right worship of God. And where the church… What Calvin’s arguing is, where the church went off the rails is in their worship of God, that’s where it began.
BK: Yes.
DK: And so, all manner of falsehood can be sown into our churches if we don’t see our corporate worship as a means of protecting the church.
BK: Yes, yes. It’s not just picking songs, it is shepherding people’s souls, it’s protecting them. And I think we will move to the last point is, “Songs help us model for the flock, what someone who’s been redeemed through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ looks like, how they respond.” As a leader, especially for those of us who are leaders, we need to demonstrate to people that we are… We’re not just leaders, we’re sheep, we’re not just shepherds we’re sheep, we’re children of God, not just pastors. We need the truth we’re singing as much as the people we’re singing them to. And I remember, I don’t know if I’ve shared this on one of the podcasts or not, but it was such a moving moment for me. I was talking to Sinclair Ferguson, who just is a godly preacher, godly pastor, and I asked him, “Sinclair, when you preach, it so often seems as though Jesus himself were… Is preaching. How do you do that?” I didn’t know what his response was gonna be, but in his Scottish accent, he responded, he said, “Well, I always imagining myself sitting under my preacher.”
BK: And I thought, “Wow.” He said, “If I’m not willing to sit under my preaching, why should I expect other people to?” And I thought how appropriate that is for those who were leading the singing as well. It’s like, “Yes, I’m a leader, but I’m more of a facilitator.” I’m an administrator, I’m keeping everything moving and trying to make sure that things make sense, but I’m sitting under this, Jesus is our worship leader. He is the one who is leading us, your representative, all those who are redeemed. He’s our representative in worshipping the Father, giving glory to the Father. I’m sitting under that. So whether I’m on the platform, whether I’m in the congregation, whether I’m at home, I should be singing the same way.
BK: I should be demonstrating the same kind of engagement, the same kind of responsiveness, same kind of joy, not sitting out in the congregation, my arms folded just kind of, “They’re okay, that’s pretty good. I bet people are missing me right now.” [chuckle] It is just that models something. If I’m an unengaged or distracted person when I’m in the congregation, that says to people, not only that the singing is unimportant, but that sends off the message that worshiping God is unimportant. You’re above that, you’re better than that. And we are never above that. So we can model through the way we sing most often off the stage, off the platform, and through the way we live, what it means to be a worshipper of God, worshipper of God. And all of that, if we are shepherding souls through song, it’s gonna make a difference in people’s lives.
BK: I think it’s in 2 Corinthians 3:18, where Paul says, “We all with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.” And in context, that specifically… That specific, “Beholding the glory of the Lord,” means in his word, but it certainly includes gathering together to behold his glory through song, through the word, through the preaching, through the fellowship, through the prayer, we’re being transformed, into his image. So it should make people not just long for another experience of singing, but it should make them more secure in God’s love. It should make them more humble. We’ve reflected on who God is, and how we are sinners in his sight and how Jesus has saved us, should make us more grateful. It should make us more unified.
BK: If no matter what kind of music we’re using, if we’re focusing on these things, if people are being cared for with the Gospel, if they’re being led, if they’re being fed, it’s gonna make us aware that we are one in these things and, what a joy it is to be able to use music and the word of God to actually shepherd people’s souls as we lead them. It’s again, it’s just this massive privilege that we shouldn’t feel pressured about, we shouldn’t feel kind of oh, you know, I’ve gotta do everything I can to make it right, and maybe I can get people into God’s presence. It’s none of that. It’s just rehearsing what God has done for us in Christ, who He is for us in Christ and leading people in that and letting the Spirit produce that work in their hearts.
DK: Yeah, amen. And I love where Paul goes next in that 2 Corinthians passage in chapter 4, he talks about how we’ve renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God.
BK: Oh, excellent.
DK: And so it’s that clear and open proclamation of truth that we commend ourselves, and then he goes on later, for what we proclaim, Verse 5, “For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord. With ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God who said, ‘Let light shine out of darkness has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.'”
BK: Amen.
DZ: Amen.
DK: And so we never, in this ministry of shepherding God’s people through song, we’re never seeing ourselves as the answer or the solution or as indispensable, but as servants for Jesus’ sake. And so I think all of our infatuation with technique and processes, and just give me the answer for how I do this better, it’s right here in God’s word, and we openly declare the goodness of God that we hold in the face of Jesus Christ, and make that our aim, week in and week out. And let that affect our lives. This is how we commend ourselves to others. It’s we see Jesus as our Savior. We walk by the power of the Holy Spirit that sustains us. And is the guarantee of our inheritance. And we live in light of the reality of who God is as the reality definer of our lives.
DZ: Well, and when you’re living in that reality and you’re leading others and you’re shepherding them, they see that, they see that in your character and in your integrity, they see that…
BK: It’s compelling.
DZ: Just even in your demeanor, just even in how you’re leading, are you compelling them to look with me to what we’re singing about, I’m realizing this as well, and so I just think, yeah, your face is radiant because you are beholding Christ.
BK: Psalm 34:5, “Those who look to Him are radiant and their faces will never be ashamed.” And I think of even just recently, I’ve seen guys leading and their nose is just stuck in their music stand and there is just no visible change of emotion as they’re singing these amazing words.
DK: Why do they have to be playing guitar?
BK: What’s that?
DK: Why do they have to be playing guitar, why couldn’t their nose be in their music stand, playing piano.
BK: I never see pianist doing this.
[laughter]
BK: But plenty of guitarists, yeah, no the same thing is true. Yeah, it’s just these truths are so great. Who Jesus is, is so great, he’s so glorious. And as we gather to sing, it’s the opportunity to realize how great He is and to realize what He’s done for us. It’s pure joy.
DK: Amen.
DZ: Yeah, so we’ve discussed a lot in these past couple of episodes, which have been so helpful…
DK: Hope so.
DZ: And I don’t want to… I’m just even for my own soul, and I don’t wanna just give a practical template or follow these eight steps like you said Dev, but I am wondering for the worship leader or for someone who’s picking songs in their church, that this is a lot of new information for them. And they’re processing all this. Where do you… What’s the place to start? When you’re just processing all that we’ve talked about, where do you go first, what can I work on first? Or, how do I reorient my perspective? To start to implement some of these things, what would you say?
BK: How would you start that?
DK: And so I would start with, it starts with your own heart, and so I would anticipate and hope that through this conversation that we’ve had over these few episodes…
BK: And this is the fifth. I think that this… This topic.
DK: Yeah, through this conversation that maybe the Holy Spirit has convicted you in different points where you know what, I have just been seeing this as a job, and so my job is to get my worship on, or whatever it is, and maybe the Holy Spirit’s convicted you that, no, what God wants is your heart. What God wants is you to find in him the satisfaction and hope, and you haven’t been doing that, and so if that’s where you’re at, then then confess your sin to Him and know that he’s faithful and just to forgive you of your sin, and then resolve to… So love God, and then love His people. And I think for both of us as pastors, as we think about shepherding our people, it’s born out of love. So that whole… I was just talking about story a little bit ago, and being a part of… I’ve been absorbed into Christ’s story. And that means I’m a part of His body, I’m a part of the body of Christ. And so I want to love those people, and so as I love them, I am gonna think about feeding them well and leading them more clearly and protecting them and caring for them through their sin and their suffering, and setting an example to them because I love them, but that flows out of my just love for God.
DZ: It has to start there.
DK: It has to start there, you have to have a heart transformed…
BK: And we love God, we love because He loved us first.
DK: Amen.
BK: And that’s… I mentioned the book Gentle and Lowly by Dane Ortlund, I think in our previous podcast, but that so clearly has represented Christ’s heart for us. That’s what grace is. Grace is realizing we were worthy… We are worthy of eternal punishment, separation from God. We are absolutely worthy of that, that’s justice. We want justice. That’s what justice is. Every one of us experiencing eternal separation from God. God in His mercy, devised a way to satisfy divine wrath by giving his own Son to satisfy divine justice, so that we might know his love.
DK: Praise God.
BK: And forgiveness, and the gift of himself. It’s not even just his gifts, it’s the gift of himself, we’ve invited in through the power of the Spirit, through the work of Christ, to commune with the triune God forever.
DK: Amen.
BK: There are eternal joys at his right hand. The more we get a hold of that, the more that is our experience, the more we will not be able to help but do those things.
DK: Yeah, that’s good.
BK: To love God, to love others. Those are the commands, right. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. And Love your neighbors as yourself. Why? Why? Because God loves you.
DK: Amen.
BK: And you don’t deserve it.
DK: Amen.
BK: And it’s true, and it’s secure, and it’s just… It’s life-transforming. So, too many of us, as leaders, we serve out of an empty tank, there’s nothing there.
DZ: Yeah, well said.
BK: There’s no life connection that we’re not abiding in the vine, it’s John 15?
DZ: Yeah, yeah.
BK: We’re not abiding in the vine, we’re abiding in our own efforts. We’re abiding in our own experiences, we’re abiding in our own perceptions. No, abide in the vine of Jesus.
DK: Amen.
BK: We are united to Him, it is an ever-flowing stream of grace, and mercy, and goodness, and joy, regardless of what we’re going through. And we have to keep reminding ourselves of that, but it’s true, it’s true.
DK: Amen.
BK: And so, I totally agree with Devon. Where are you gonna start? Start with your soul. Start with your view of God in Jesus Christ. And then I’d say practically, in terms of the music ministry, start with the songs you’re singing. Look at them, evaluate them, ask yourself these questions, talk with your pastor. If you’re a leader, make sure that you’re together on this, you’re not just launching out into your own adventure. Listen to these podcasts together, just… And as a grounds for discussion.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Because again, that’s for another podcast series, the whole pastor-worship leader relationship. But it’s important that everybody’s on the same page.
DZ: Yeah, right, right.
BK: You’re seeking to do the same things as you gather.
DK: Amen. Amen.
BK: So, I hope this is helpful to that end.
DZ: Yeah. Yeah. We have… In a couple of different podcasts, we’ve ended just with a prayer, especially after we’ve done a series of episodes on one topic. Just praying that whoever is listening to this podcast, that this would just sort of cement into their hearts. This is… We long to see Christ glorified in our midst when we gather. So Dev, if you wanna close our time with a prayer.
DK: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.
DZ: We’d love that and it’s been great to have you.
DK: Yeah. Father, thank you for what we’ve been talking about, the gift of your revealing yourself to us in Jesus Christ. And thank you that we can receive him by the Spirit, and we can enjoy fellowship with you through what you’ve done. Thank you that you invite us and you welcome us, and you invite us to come even in spite of our weaknesses, and our failings. Lord, I pray for those who are listening or watching, Lord, would they be encouraged by the hope that’s found in you, and would they see you as their greatest treasure. Lord, thank you for the gift that it is to point people to you to be your sheep dogs. And joyfully, at your behest care for your people, your sheep. Lord, may we do that faithfully and joyfully. It’s in Jesus’ name we pray. Amen.
DZ: Amen.
BK: Amen.
DZ: Thank you for listening to Sound Plus Doctrine, the podcast of Sovereign Grace Music. For more information, free sheet music, translations and training resources, you can visit us at SovereignGraceMusic.org.