David Zimmer: Welcome to the Sound Plus Doctrine Podcast. My name is David Zimmer.
Bob Kauflin: My name is Bob Kauflin.
DZ: And we have Devon Kauflin returning back to the podcast.
Devon Kauflin: Great to be here.
DZ: It’s so good to always have you with us, Devon.
DK: Always good.
DZ: Bob, what are we talking about today?
BK: We are talking about, something that has plagued I think people who lead music in the church for quite some time now. And, the title of this podcast is called Open the Eyes of my Face Lord.
[laughter]
DZ: It’s an excellent title.
BK: It’s… I don’t know if everybody will get that. Like…
DZ: Well, if they don’t know what that song is.
BK: Right. So Paul Baloche wrote this song, “Open the Eyes of My Heart Lord,” which a lot of churches have sang.
DZ: That is so popular.
BK: Yeah very popular.
DZ: I would imagine people know it.
BK: So yeah, we just thought we should talk about, [laughter] the almost universal tendency of those who lead and sing and really people in the congregation, as well as in front to close your eyes when you sing to the Lord.
DZ: Definitely.
DK: When do you think that started?
BK: You know, that’s a great question. I think… Since I’m the only one here who could represent this era.
[laughter]
BK: I think it started back like in the ’60s and ’70s, I mean, maybe before then, but in the ’70s Jesus Music began and kind of worship music that phrase, that genre started and worship became this kind of, you know, oh, I don’t know a mystical experience. And for some reason you couldn’t open your eyes, [laughter] when you did it.
DZ: Well, and I also think there’s a personal aspect to the worship. You know, the worship experience that you’re talking about that is just, you know, I’ve heard… I think we’ve all heard it said, “It’s just me and the Lord.”
BK: Yes, yes, yes. So when you see advertising for a worship song, a worship conference, whatever, worship, you see a picture of someone with their eyes closed.
DZ: Right.
BK: And yeah, I think it’s begun to change some over the years. People are looking out, but there are a lot of reasons we do it. I think you mentioned one just to look spiritual, maybe you shouldn’t start there, to look spiritual. At times you just wanna shut everything out and just…
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Sing to the Lord. And that’s the easiest way to do it. Shut out the distractions. But then that gets into, “Well, wait a minute, you’re like with people, there are all these people around you.”
DZ: Right, right.
BK: And why wouldn’t you want to, [laughter] why wouldn’t you want to acknowledge that? I mean, Colossians 3:16 says we’re teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom. So if I’m gonna teach you now, those who aren’t watching on YouTube, won’t be able to see this, but if I’m going to teach you, I’m not going to be like shutting my eyes as I… I know you’re there, David, because I hear your laugh. Devon. I’m not sure about ’cause he’s totally silent, but I heard that breath there. So, but you know, I’d open my eyes. I wouldn’t do it. So I think that’s not very helpful.
[laughter]
DZ: Yeah.
DK: But I do, I think there is this pursuit of experience that people are after that lead them to close their eyes.
BK: Yes.
DK: And I mean I asked, haven’t really thought about this for a while, but as I asked the question. When when…
BK: Well, Devon, we’re doing a podcast on it, you should think about it.
DK: When did this start? But I wonder if a lot of it came out of revivalism, particularly, the Second Great Awakening.
BK: Yes.
DK: And where there was this, I think overt pursuit of experience. And people gather…
BK: Although we don’t know if they closed their eyes back then or not.
DK: We don’t know because there weren’t video cameras.
BK: Yes. I don’t remember anybody writing on it.
DK: But I think, I mean, I think it is that experience and that… Would you say there’s something good in that? As far as when we gather we should experience something.
BK: Yes.
DK: And at times there might be a desire to minimize distractions or shut things down.
BK: Yes.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And yeah, I think that’s a good reason. I think a not so good reason is like, I just don’t want to… I wanna pretend that no one’s here, you know, fear of man. I just don’t want to think about the other people around me. This is my thing, me and the Lord. And I’m just going to shut everybody out. At least if you’re in a congregation.
DK: Well, what I think has happened now though is, it’s become… It’s like a virus that’s spread.
BK: Yes.
DK: Where people might have started closing their eyes as they gathered for a specific purpose.
BK: Yes.
DK: And they had a reason for doing it. And now as time goes on, we continue doing the same practices.
DZ: Yeah.
DK: Yeah, the meaning has changed or we have no idea why.
DZ: Yeah.
DK: But it’s just like, “Oh, this is what worship looks like.”
BK: Yes.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Well that… And that’s where I think it’s… I don’t know whether it started up front and bled into the congregation, was mimicked by the congregation or whether it started just as our understanding of worship. I mean, I remember in the late ’90s reading David Peterson’s Engaging With God, and how in the first chapter of the introduction, I just looked at this recently, he was saying that if you think that worship is like an individual emotive experience with you and God where, you know, you close everything off, you have no idea what biblical worship is.
DZ: Wow.
BK: And I thought, oh my gosh, that’s exactly what I think it is.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And it was just kind of this, you know, mind blowing thing, revelation that God doesn’t think of singing to him, worshiping him as automatically including that your eyes are closed. And I think we have this sense that, you know, the holy spirit likes it when our eyes are closed.
[laughter]
BK: He speaks more to us, and this is not against closing your eyes.
DK: Right.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: But I think it worked from that personal, experience to upfront. That’s what we’re seeking to address more specifically.
DK: In the context of public worship, corporate worship.
BK: Yes.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Those in front leading, why do we close our eyes? And that I think is the greater concern, you know.
DZ: Well, and I do think, you mentioned trends sort of changing, I do think there has been a positive change about sort of… You’ve seen a lot of the leading in the circle, you know, in the round and that almost forces eye contact.
BK: Yes.
DZ: With other people around you.
BK: Yes.
DZ: It’s less, these are the people on stage and you know, those are the people in the congregation.
BK: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
DZ: But I still think from your perspective, you’re talking about these people that are leading, why are we shutting our eyes?
BK: Well, and it’s… Of course it’s right and plausible and helpful at different times to close your eyes when you’re leading, and just think, Lord, “I’m singing this to you.” But I can’t live there.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: I’m with the congregation, I’m singing the Lord’s praise in the midst of the congregation.
DZ: Right.
BK: And if… I mean I’ve seen this, I’m sure I’ve done this years ago. Where someone is leading, and even when they’re speaking to the congregation, their eyes are closed. And so for, say, out of 20-25 minutes, 80% of the time, their eyes are closed. And I’m thinking, why is that? Why do we do that? And I think there are a lot of reasons. There could be lot of reasons. [chuckle] One is, and I’ve heard leaders express this, you don’t want to see the faces of the people who are singing, you think they’re distracted, they’re apathetic, they’re confused, or they’re angry about what you’re doing, so you just, “I’m just going to close my eyes. So I don’t have to look at them.” You don’t want to see people walk out of the room. You know, people get up and [chuckle] walk out.
DZ: I think… I even think, seeing a pastor’s reaction from the front row. It’s like, am I doing this right? Am I doing this wrong? I think there can be fear of man, played into that.
BK: Yeah. And just even counting, who’s here? So I don’t have to think about “Oh, man, attendance seems to be dwindling. I’ll just close my eyes. I wouldn’t have to think about it.” It’s just… As though that were somehow more spiritual, or even helpful. Yeah, I mean, Devon, do you close your eyes when you lead?
DK: No, I actually don’t.
BK: Good.
DK: I don’t think I do.
BK: “I don’t think I do.”
[chuckle]
DK: But I wouldn’t know.
[laughter]
DK: Because I’m not looking at myself. But, I remember about 20 years ago, seeing Stewart Townend lead, I think it was at a WorshipGod Conference.
BK: “In Christ Alone,” “How Deep the Father’s Love”?
DK: Yeah, seeing him lead. And he was leading… He kind of led in the round a little bit. And he had his eyes open the whole time. And I remember being so struck by that.
DZ: Wow.
DK: And I can’t remember if it was I either I had a conversation with him, or I heard somebody him talking to somebody else about it, asking him about it. And he was just saying that, “No, I do that very intentionally. Because, we’re doing this together. And I’m called to lead these people in this moment. And I want to know what’s going on. If my eyes are closed. I don’t know what’s going on.” It was very practical, almost pragmatic, but it was like, “Oh, that makes a lot of sense.”
DZ: Yep.
BK: It’s rooted in Scripture.
DK: And it is rooted in Scripture. And so… Since then, I have intentionally, I know the temptation, I think, to separate myself… It’s a lot easier if I just… I’m able to just focus on what I need to do. And so, I’ll just keep my eyes closed, and just get through it. But that is not at all what God has called us to do. As we bear witness to what He’s done and who He is. And so I keep my eyes open. And in the context of the local church, it’s been such a gift to remember that we are doing these things together.
BK: Yes.
DK: And to be edified as we do those things together. And so just seeing, even this past Sunday, I’ve got… There was a member of our church who was dying, and she actually ended up dying on Sunday, but her son and daughter-in-law are in our church as well. And seeing… I know what they’re going through, and seeing them…
DZ: Yes.
DK: The only way I could know this is because I had my eyes open. Seeing them attest to the faithfulness of God, and the grace of God, or expressed their trust in Jesus. We sang CityAlight’s song “I will trust my savior Jesus, when my darkest doubts befall. I will trust him, when to simply trust him seems the hardest thing of all.” And I see them singing that. And what that does…
DZ: Oh man.
BK: For me and in building me into the Word of God and the promises of God. That’s being edified as a church. And that happens as a result of having my eyes open.
DZ: Right. That is the effect.
BK: I can guarantee you there are people listening to this podcast, or watching it right now, who are thinking, “Yeah, that’s a problem for other people.” But not thinking it’s a problem for you. And I would just challenge you to watch videos of yourself. If you have a recording and probably with COVID, you may have a recording. And I’m going to go looking for ones with you Dev, where, to see if you’ve ever closed your eyes.
[chuckle]
BK: No, again, we’re not saying it’s wrong to close your eyes. There are appropriate moments times where it… Yeah, that’s totally appropriate. What we’re talking about is the tendency, almost universal tendency, to think that to sing to the Lord with his people in the church, you have to close your eyes. That’s when you… Maybe you start off open, your eyes, but then when you get into really, the holy of holies moments, that’s when you close your eyes and you can’t look at anybody. It just doesn’t… It denies the horizontal aspect of what we’re doing. The corporate, congregational worship is both vertical to God, and horizontal to each other. And we get that from Colossians 3:16 “We’re teaching and admonishing one another with thankfulness in our hearts with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.” So we’re doing that as we sing.
BK: And then in 1 Corinthians 14, Paul talks, at least five times uses the word, to edify, to build up. We are building up one another. Again, we don’t do that with our eyes closed. So I love what you were saying about Stewart, that he could see how people were responding or not responding, and adjust what he does in accordance with that. I mean, there are a lot of things you can see whether it’s people raising their hands, or just brightness on their faces, their body posture, the enthusiasm, that they’re communicating all that you can see or lack thereof, and that can affect the things you might say, or the song, the choices you might make while you’re leading. If your eyes are closed. It’s not going to happen. You have no idea.
DZ: Yeah.
DK: And I think there’s also just the embodied nature of our gatherings and just remember…
BK: Great point.
DK: We are souls and we are bodies, and we gather together to receive God’s word and to, express our gratefulness and testify to, all that he’s done for us.
BK: Yes.
DK: And we do that in an embodied way, and there are no activities, that we really participate in where we intentionally, I think, isolate ourselves, close ourselves off, from other people.
BK: Maybe in Eastern religions or something.
DK: Yeah. But it’s just, that’s just not a… Just a part of normal life.
BK: Yes.
DZ: Right.
DZ: And so I think there is this…
BK: Although when I’m in a dentist’s chair, I do close my eyes.
DK: You do close your eyes in that context.
BK: So I think in that context.
DK: That’s not just so much, I wouldn’t count that as a corporate context.
BK: Okay. That’s two of us in the room, that’s true. Okay. Good point.
DK: But yeah, I mean, you think about a sporting event… I mean, you, whatever it is, where you’re with other people, you’re not thinking like, no, this should just be me, right? Yes. So, and so, but there is this, like, there’s this earthiness to it where it’s, it can be awkward when you have your eyes open.
BK: Yeah.
DK: And you see the things that are going on and you see really that guy’s going, like heading out of the auditorium again or…
[laughter]
DK: You see the child, like whatever, throw his crowns on the floor. I mean there’s but that’s okay. I mean, because we are, we are real people, very ordinary, finite, fallible people gathered together doing this extraordinary thing by the Spirit. And so, I mean having our eyes open to that, I think it cultivates this humility in us where it’s like, oh yeah, we’re not like the picture-perfect rock stars or anything like that. That’s just, I’m doing my thing, so I’ve got my eyes closed. It’s like, it’s not about that at all. It’s about what God is doing, what he’s already doing in our midst that we get to participate in.
DZ: Right.
BK: Yeah. You were going to say something?
DZ: With the… Well, so if I’m listening to this podcast and I’m not a worship leader or I’m on stage and I’m just in the congregation, just…
BK: Just in the congregation.
DZ: How do you… Would you encourage those people to be, you know, opening their eyes, aware of their surroundings? I know we’re talking a lot about, you know, worship leaders.
BK: Yes. Yes.
DZ: How would you encourage someone who isn’t leading that way?
BK: When, definitely, it’s the same thing. So the band is part of the congregation. We may be on a platform, but we are part of the congregation. So what goes for us goes for them they’re singing to each other, they’re teaching and admonishing one another. They can benefit. I mean, we haven’t really talked about all the benefits of keeping your eyes open, but they can see what’s happening around. They could look to someone, you know, a couple of rows over and realize, oh, I know what they’re going through and look at the way they’re responding to the Lord. So when I’m not leading, I’m usually in the front, not always, but usually, and there will be like at least two or three times during the singing where I’ll turn around. Yeah. And look at everybody just to remind myself, “Wow, look at, look at what we get to do. Look who Jesus has saved. And we get to do this together and let me sing these words to you.” And I mean, not.
DK: And everybody else is thinking, “Who’s this crazy guy that just turned around and looking at me?”
[laughter]
BK: They can do that. But it’s… I’m just saying, this is what we’re doing guys. We’re not… And I might be the only one in the room, not usually, but who’s thinking, “Hey, we’re doing this together.”
DZ: Yes.
BK: So yeah. The, the benefits to opening your, keeping your eyes mostly open far outweigh the distractions as Devon was talking about. And it’s biblical. Yeah. It it’s what we’re doing.
DK: Well and I think what we count as distractions in these instances are not really distractions. They’re just interrupting what we perceive as the spiritual experience.
BK: Yeah.
DZ: Exactly.
DK: But I think they’re very much a part of what we’re called to experience together. Together.
BK: Yeah. That gets back to how we define spiritual experience. What is a spiritual experience? Is it God defines it or is it, I define it.
DZ: Right. Well, and I was gonna say Ed you turning around… I mean, I remember the first time you did that at a Resolve conference. [laughter] and well, but my, I think what’s so interesting about that is you’re trying to build into people that it isn’t just a one direction.
BK: Yes.
DZ: One dimension.
BK: Absolutely.
DZ: And so I think it’s way more frequent at our church, you know in Louisville, but people aren’t used to that. And to Devon’s point like who is this guy? [laughter] To Devon’s point because it goes against the norm of I’m here. I’m looking at the screen. My eyes are closed. It fights against that. And so you, you’re going to, I mean, I know you’re going to go through practical reasons why we should open our eyes.
BK: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
DZ: But I just think like to encourage your congregation, hey, it’s not just that you’re looking at us…
BK: Absolutely. Or the screen…
DZ: There’s freedom… Or the screen.
DK: This all presupposes that you can see other people, I mean, that’s another factor.
BK: Did we… Have we done a podcast on that yet, we have not.
DK: I have no idea if you’ve a done podcast on that but.
BK: Oh boy do we need to.
DZ: I believe we have.
BK: Not, not on lights.
DK: But if you have the opportunity, have any influence in whether or not there is enough light to see other people yes. I would encourage you to pursue that.
DZ: Well, the darkness, yeah sort of shrouds the, it’s making me think, “Okay. I should go inward.”
DK: It mandates that everyone essentially has their eyes closed.
DZ: Right.
BK: Or look to the front.
DK: Right.
DZ: Or look to the front. Yeah Right.
DK: Or Look to the front. And yeah. And so, I mean, we are, a city set on a hill. We are a lamp that should not be hidden. And so if we are the people of the light, let there be light.
[laughter]
DZ: Amen. Amen.
BK: I couldn’t argue with that. Yeah. So some of the reasons, that it can be so helpful, as I mentioned before, we can miss out on genuine encouragement that God means to provide through the faces.
DZ: Absolutely.
BK: Of those around us, on stage. And it’s not stage the platform, whatever it is. You can benefit from looking at the other musicians.
DZ: Absolutely.
BK: I, yeah. I don’t think it’s helpful or a helpful model or a example. I don’t think it’s what the Lord intends. I just watched a video the other day where there was a girl singing up front and the rest of the band, they were just kind of grooving and not… Kind of doing their own thing and just kind of in their own worlds. And I thought, “What is that saying to us?” It just seems a lot more performance than it is, “Hey, we’re all here together singing to the Lord, singing His praise, responding to what Jesus has done for us.” It just, it didn’t say any of that.
DZ: Yep.
BK: And so keeping your eyes open, looking at each other, builds that connection, affirms it and you really do get encouraged by it.
DZ: Well, and to take that one step further, when you have bands that are phenomenal musicians, they’re looking at each other and feeding off of each other.
BK: Yes, yes, yes.
DZ: Because they’re enjoying the process of making music together, all the more reason.
BK: Right. You’re right.
DZ: You should be looking around and going, “Can you believe we get to do this?”
BK: Yes. And that’s…
DK: “Can we get in on this?” Yeah.
BK: It’s astonishment. It’s amazement. It’s easier for me to communicate… Another point. It’s easier for me to communicate with people, the truths that we’re singing when I’m looking at them. So often leaders will say things and I use this worship leader voice, and I’ll just get airy and high and will say, isn’t the Lord good? And I think, You never talk like that. In real life, you never talk like that.
[laughter]
BK: But because your eyes are closed it’s okay.
DZ: Right.
BK: And when you look at people, you’ll feel embarrassed to talk like that. So open your eyes, look at them and, and say what you think the Lord wants you to say and it will just be much more effective.
DK: That’s good.
DZ: That’s right.
BK: So opening your eyes helps with that. I’m more aware of what’s happening around me. I can see what I’m playing. I mean, that’s the other thing [laughter]
DZ: Oh, that’s a…
BK: I’ve done this.
DZ: Big reason.
DZ: I’ve done this.
[laughter]
BK: Oh, I’m just… I’ve closed by as I’m playing.
[vocalization]
BK: Oh my gosh.
DK: But at least you looked the part. You were looking spiritual.
BK: I was… That’s exactly right.
DZ: Yes.
BK: I was looking spiritual, communing with the Lord. But it’s not unspiritual to know what you’re doing.
DZ: Right.
BK: It’s not unspiritual to read the words. I’ve had people say this, this from a congregation perspective, “Can we do songs with fewer words so I can just really worship the Lord?” There’s nothing unnatural, nothing unspiritual, nothing not glorifying to God in reading words and saying them.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: I think of any relationship, I think of my relationship with Julie. If I am sharing words for her, that, I’ve written that I’ve thought about that’s not less meaningful. So when I write a card, I’m writing very specifically things that I want to move her and that she’s reading it, I’m watching her. I’m not closing my eyes or she’s not closing her eyes. She has to read it. But there’s truth being communicated. And we’re doing that with our eyes open. So yeah, there are just so many benefits. Yeah.
DK: How do you avoid the… Somebody might be listening to this and thinking that’s going to be so awkward. What things should you avoid as you have your eyes open?
DZ: Yes.
DK: I can think of a couple, but I’m curious. Do you guys have thoughts on what you might want to avoid as you have your eyes open?
BK: Staring at people.
DK: That’s one of the ones I was thinking of.
BK: Staring people down.
[laughter]
DZ: For sure.
BK: You’re not, but I’ve heard people say, “Just look out over the congregation.” No, look at people. Yeah. Look at… You’re just scanning the room, but you’re not landing on people. You might, briefly, and that joy that’s communicated and that this is so great. You’re not looking for people to like pick fights with so I can have that tendency. If someone is just kind of like…
DK: Scowling.
BK: Yeah. Scowling. I just want to stare him down. Look at him, “Hey, this is good. We’re praising the Lord right now. And you should be too.”
DZ: Oh man.
BK: And just don’t do that. Just avoid that. Really this, I think of Psalm 40, “I have told the glad news of deliverance in the midst of the great congregation, Behold I’ve not restrained my lips, as you know, oh Lord, I’ve not hidden your deliverance within my heart. I’ve spoken of your faithfulness and your salvation. I have not concealed your steadfast love and your faithfulness from the great congregation.” It’s like, you see that often in the Psalms where the Psalmist is saying, “I have experienced something so rich, so rewarding. So life transforming. I want to tell other people about it.” And when we are singing songs that proclaim those kinds of truths. My songs… I’d never remember it. Lord my rock, my Redeemer… The greatest treasure of my longing soul. It’s like, why wouldn’t I want to tell people about that? Why wouldn’t I want them to see that He is the greatest treasure of my soul?
DZ: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t think… It’s not a, I don’t know, not a criticism of not opening up your eyes, but I have led an open and I’ve been opening my eyes and I’ve see someone who’s gone through something so hard.
BK: Yeah.
DZ: And I’ve been so moved that I’ve had to step off of the mic because I don’t want my voice to crack or break.
BK: Oh.
DZ: So if you’re not used to that, you’re going to interact with people or you’re just gonna see them singing and they might be so moved and affected by the words.
BK: Yes.
DZ: That you see that. And then now you’re affected by what you’re seeing. So if you’re not used to it, I do think it can be really, it can just kind of wash over you like a wave, so.
BK: What’s washing over you?
DZ: The, I mean, being affected by seeing…
BK: Oh, I see.
DZ: People affected.
BK: I see. I see. Now, I think the other thing that can wash over us is just that fear of man. So often we close our eyes because we just don’t want to see how we’re doing. When we see that it’s in the Worship Matters Intensive. So, 15 guys, everybody leads, they all get evaluated. And in that context, guys will be closing their eyes. It’s like…
DZ: Right.
BK: We’re right here.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: What [laughter] and all, for all the reasons it’d be so much better to open your eyes, but you don’t want to be exposed. You feel naked when you’re… You open your eyes, they see you, you see them. But I would say, God can give you by His Spirit, the strength to press through that. I’d encourage you to press through that and concentrate more on what you’ve received from the Lord and what you are proclaiming to them than how you look, how you sound, those kind of things.
DK: That’s good.
DZ: Yes. Excellent.
BK: What, you have some other things?
DK: I think, upfront for those that are helping support congregational singing. I think it’s great to make those connections with one another, as you’re playing and just like, what a gift this is.
BK: Amongst the musicians?
DK: Yeah. Amongst the musicians. But I think just being aware that you don’t want to convey that you are enjoying playing music…
DZ: The parties…
DK: More than you are.
DZ: And they’re not invited.
BK: We’re jamming, baby.
DK: Worshipping as a congregation, singing together as congregation, so I think being aware of that. And then, similar to staring at people, it’s I think also being conscious of what it might convey if you’re always looking at the same person.
DZ: Right.
BK: That’s a good point.
DK: That can be problematic.
BK: That’s a good point.
DK: And so avoiding things like that, but it is such a gift and this is, I think what opening our eyes does. It’s such a gift to be reminded that God’s purpose is to save a people.
BK: Yeah.
DK: To deliver a people.
DZ: Yep.
DK: For His glory. And when we have our eyes open, we’re more aware of that.
BK: We’re able to see it.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: We’re able to see it.
DZ: And how tied to salvation are our eyes we were blind and now we see…
BK: Yes.
DZ: Spiritual blindness and physical blindness. And, those comparisons is like, it’s the heart of the gospel. We were blind and running from Christ.
BK: Yeah. Well, and to put it in perspective, having your spiritual eyes opened is infinitely more significant than opening your physical eyes.
DZ: Yes.
BK: We’re just saying that maybe we could see a little bit more of the second.
DZ: Right. [laughter] Well said. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, thank you. This is such a great topic, a great title too from an old song, a ’90s song, 2000s song.
BK: Oh, it may have been ’80s.
DK: I think ’90s.
DZ: Was it?
BK: It wasn’t 2000s. Yeah.
DZ: So good.
BK: Thank you, Paul for writing that song.
DZ: Yes. Well, and thank you guys. And thank you for listening.
BK: Yes.
DZ: And watching, if you watch on YouTube, our podcast and we’ll see you around.
