Format: Sound Plus Doctrine PodcastDownload Session
In this episode, part 2 of 2, Bob and David are joined again by CJ Mahaney to continue the conversation about the relationship between a pastor and their music leader. Bob and CJ have a history of serving together for over 30 years, 23 of them in the same church. We think you’ll love sitting in on this conversation as they talk about what contributes to a healthy pastor and worship leader dynamic.
Have a question about this episode? Shoot us an email at firstname.lastname@example.org
David Zimmer: Hey, this is David Zimmer.
Bob Kauflin: And it’s Bob Kauflin.
BK: And this is a part two of our conversation with our very special guest, CJ Mahaney.
BK: Yes sir.
DZ: Who is joining us. If you didn’t listen to the part one of this…
BK: Shame on you.
DZ: It was an absolute circus.
BK: Yeah, you should…
DZ: That’s well said.
BK: Okay, that’s true. Well, let’s get started.
DZ: No, there were so many helpful things that we were able to talk about, but it’s just a joy to be sitting here and asking you both questions. So where we left off last in our part one was how do we receive correction from our head pastor and the one who’s leading the music? And so can we talk more about that?
BK: Yeah, yeah, I have my role as the one who leads the music, CJ’s role, the head pastor. We were talking about how when I moved to his church in 1997, I had had a ministry, led at conferences, probably done a lot more. I was doing a lot more than I probably should have given the… What I really knew about what I was doing, but I came and he’d asked me to move my whole family there, and he could have taken the approach of, “Well, I wanna keep this guy and just make sure he’s happy.” And he did, he did make sure I was happy, but he also brought correction to me, and not hard correction, but just, he helped me grow. And I know there are churches where a guy will move to a church and the pastor will either not say much of anything to him, or that what he does say will be kind of just negative, that’s all he gets.
BK: And so, I don’t know if we’ve ever really talked in detail about this, but there are certain conversations we had that I have just never forgotten, things you’ve said to me then. So I’d be… Wanting to know more how you thought about that, even that relationship, ’cause I think that that’s what we wanna get into. Just the pastor, worship leader relationship. How did you think about that?
CJ: Well, I didn’t view serving on Sunday as, you have the singing portion, and then I’m responsible for the preaching as the senior pastor.
DZ: You sure didn’t.
CJ: I think I had an overall responsibility to serve with the entire pastoral team. So that’s how I viewed the Sunday meeting, and you made it easy to approach you. So yes, I would wanna make sure the listeners are very clear.
BK: I don’t remember that.
CJ: Our interactions were characterized, first and foremost, and are to this day. What are the evidences of grace that I observed? That would be, to me, Pauline leadership applied in whatever context I find myself.
BK: From 1 Corinthians, you’ve taught on this…
CJ: Yes, 1 Corinthians and…
BK: Wow. And elsewhere.
CJ: Yeah. What are the evidence that God is at work? As we gather, I want to perceive how He is at work.
CJ: I want to draw people’s attention to that. I want to leave behind edified souls. Most of all, we want to thank God for His grace and glorify Him so…
BK: That’s true no matter how big your church is, no matter how long it’s been a church. It’s just that’s true. It’s reality.
CJ: It’s whoever you’re with. If you know someone is a Christian, you can assume they’re more aware of the absence of God, than they are of God’s nearness. They’re probably more aware of guilt than they are of grace. So yes, we can serve them by drawing their attention to the gospel and particular evidences of grace, that we observe in their lives. So that’s the model of leadership I’ve sought to emulate, and it’s easy to emulate Paul’s example. If Paul could relate that way to the Corinthians, no senior pastor and lead pastor, has an excuse for relating…
DZ: It’s true.
CJ: Any differently to their church. I’ve said to pastors over the years, numerous times, “If you wanna be encouraged about your church, read Corinthians, and then look up from that book and look at your church.” So that’s the approach. Now, yes, it can also involve correction, as I mentioned in the previous podcast. That early study of Proverbs, the value of wisdom taught in Proverbs and then a means of pursuing wisdom. Correction. Correction comes in differing forms, but one means of correction is those you work with who see you up close and personal, and when… Here’s my experience, and also I wouldn’t want people to assume I’m simply bringing correction to you. No, I invite it after every message I preach, so because…
BK: Well, I was gonna mention that, but since you already did. Yeah, you do.
CJ: Well, I wasn’t trying to draw attention by the way. I just wanted people to know how we lead by example here, not just out there correcting everybody. That’s not, no…
BK: No, no, no. You are an example of this, which makes it easy to receive from you.
CJ: But the reason I’m pursuing that is because I value wisdom. I don’t enjoy being critiqued.
BK: I don’t know if anybody does.
CJ: It’s the fruit of being critiqued. So here’s what I would say when I’m asked about preaching. I’ve learned far more over the, “Oh my could it possibly be like… ”
BK: 47… 49 years?
CJ: 49 years now, I think, of preaching? I’ve learned far more from the critique I’ve received than I have from the encouragement I’ve received. Now, what’s my preference? Please, encourage.
BK: Let me guess. Let me guess.
CJ: That’s my preference.
CJ: But as I look back, if I’m ever in a context where I’m being asked questions about preaching, or I’m teaching on homiletics, my illustrations are drawn from moments when somebody cared enough, and was informed enough and discerning enough to bring me an observation that had made a difference in my preparation or in my proclamation of the gospel. So I think your experience has been the same way, that you invite it, you make it easy, and another thing, a qualifying statement, those bringing it they’re not infallible, so that doesn’t mean you’re obligated to agree. So we are often disagreeing and something you mentioned in the previous podcast that I want to repeat again, these things are not… They are minor matters, and I’m always introducing them that way. These are not the difference makers in the meeting, they’re just very small observations that could make a difference if they became a pattern. And I’m usually looking for patterns too, by the way, not a single instance.
BK: Yes, but I know…
CJ: Before I say anything that’s corrective or evaluative.
BK: You have… I remember when we would do conferences together, events that you would ask me for my input on your messages, I never studied homiletics, I never studied hermeneutics, I never… But you were asking me, I could tell you what I thought, I could tell you… “Well that illustration didn’t seem to make sense to me. I missed your third point, that might have been me, but I didn’t hear it or that part seemed long to me. I just… I felt seemed long.” And you would listen to all those critiques and say, “yeah, that’s really helping me in this way,” and you still do it to this day. So the value of just… On the one hand, nothing’s major. The Holy Spirit will still move, and these are small matters, but the small matters can make a big difference over time.
CJ: Absolutely, yeah.
BK: And so I wanted to get back to CJ, what categories? What are some of the things that run through your mind when you’re seeing someone leading, that you’d be sensitive to? That you’d be aware of?
DZ: Yeah, that’s good.
BK: Just… I think those would be so helpful to hear.
CJ: Oh, that is great. Well you see here, now here, this is no fair, you guys, you give a topic, then you say you can’t prepare, we’re not gonna give you any questions, and then…
BK: It’d be helpful if you just answer the question rather than critiquing it.
CJ: What am I looking for? First of all, I am looking for an appetite for theology in an individual who leads worship.
DZ: You’re good.
BK: Okay, now you’re going to the individual themselves?
CJ: Yeah. What do you want me to go for?
BK: I’m just talking about like in the meeting.
CJ: In the meeting?
BK: Yeah, when you see someone leading, me or whoever? What are some things that you notice they do or don’t do? That you’d say, “Oh, they… I wish they’d do more of that.”
CJ: Okay, well, here’s where I’m at a disadvantage. You have been the person leading the singing. If I may…
BK: Well, you say stuff to me.
CJ: For decades, so I’m not… I don’t have a vast array of frustrations.
DZ: I have to refresh your memory.
CJ: But yeah, the song selection matters big time.
BK: Okay, but what are you looking for in the song?
CJ: The progression of the song…
BK: Okay, talk about that.
CJ: Well, we’re looking for… First of all, we’re looking for theology, we are looking for gospel centered sound doctrine that is communicated through those songs, and that the songs really are a means of teaching, and provoking us to sing the gospel to one another and experience…
BK: That the word of Christ dwell in you richly.
CJ: The presence, and power of the Holy Spirit, and the gift of illumination as we do creating and cultivating affections for him, and I wish you could lead us in a song right now. I would have loved to sing.
DZ: Amen, amen.
BK: We were there last Sunday, that’s for sure.
CJ: That’s what I’m looking for, then I’m looking at the person’s example, I want… Again, I’m not studying the individual, I’m singing myself, but one can’t help but notice, I want that individual who is leading, I want them to be engaged, I’d like it to be obvious, they need to be proficient enough with their instrument so that they don’t have to concentrate on their instrument so that they can fully engage in the song. So that would be something I am looking for. And again, I understand we have all kinds of different churches representatives listening to this podcast, so apply what serves you in this particular season, but yeah, I’m looking for enough proficiency so that that person is truly engaged in a way, so that those observing are being led by their example. I want them to be very careful and selective with what they communicate.
BK: Well, yes you do.
CJ: We are there to sing, you are not there to perform and…
BK: Or preach.
CJ: Yeah. And so if you are inserting yourself unnecessarily, that is unhelpful.
CJ: And for the sake of the church, I would like you to stop, because what you’ve done Bob is you’ve created a singing church. So because we’ve taught and because of your example, we don’t need someone cheering us on, and actually, that person inserting themselves becomes an interruption and a distraction, so I’m definitely listening for that. Then yes, you need to be bringing an exhortation, so I’m probably paying most careful attention then, because…
BK: It’s like something you say between songs that is gonna…
CJ: Yes, yes.
BK: And what’s that supposed to do? What are you looking for? I guess that’s what you are about to say.
CJ: Well, you’re a pastor, so you’re teaching. I think leading worship is and giving an exhortation during worship is much more difficult than preparing and preaching a sermon, because you have to be concise.
BK: I disagree with you there.
BK: You do have to be concise, yeah.
CJ: Well, yeah. But if you have to be concise, and you do, then it requires a disproportionate amount of preparation.
BK: That’s true.
CJ: So I’ve got 45 minutes, I can scream at you all.
CJ: So I have a breadth of time that I can work with.
BK: You just lost about 30 people right there.
CJ: Yeah, you don’t. And so that requires much more careful preparation. So I would say, as I think back over the years, it has seemed to me in different contexts that worship leaders can unwisely kind of value their spontaneous comments and communications, and as I’m out there, I’m thinking, “Yep, that was spontaneous because it lacks substance, and it just wasn’t very good.” So, I’m looking for that, and I want that kind of passion for study and preparation to be evident in a clear, concise, compelling exhortation that then helps transition us to the next song. So that is something else I’m definitely looking for.
BK: Let me insert something right there: Just among Sovereign Grace guys, I’ve tried to move away from that word because it developed an unhealthy model or a mindset where, “So, I have to give an exhortation, okay, I’m gonna write it down,” and it was just kind of stiff, but that’s not what you mean by that, that exhortation…
CJ: No, and if somebody has written it down, I would say I’m taking the piece of paper away from you because… Now, that would be different. We’re not talking about preaching here, but for somebody in that capacity, know that they shouldn’t be looking down at notes, they should be engaging with the congregation, and so it just requires sufficient private preparation so that they can communicate it effectively in a way which does transition us and doesn’t seem like this is now a section of the meeting…
BK: Teaching time.
CJ: No, no. Yeah.
DZ: That encourages those who are listening that are leading the music in their church, that you’re not just picking songs, you’re pastorally putting in the preparation.
BK: Oh yeah. Which we did a whole series…
CJ: That’s right.
DZ: We’re not just pulling it from anywhere and saying it because we wanna say it, it’s the preparation that we’re talking about.
CJ: The guy leading the singing has a pastoral role and responsibility, in my opinion. And he is teaching.
BK: There have been the choice of songs and the content of the exhortation matters.
BK: There have been two times… Specific times that I remember when you came to me and said, you didn’t come to me, we were in a conversation, you just said, “You know… ” One was in Gaithersburg, one was here, I think. You said, “I can tell the difference between the times you prepare to say something, and the times you don’t prepare to say something.” That just really landed on me.
CJ: You didn’t have to repeat it, say it loud.
BK: I’m really sorry, but I can… [laughter]
CJ: And I know you can, and probably everybody else can, too.
DZ: That’s one one.
BK: You know how when you do this for a long time, and that there’s so many of us like this, and if you’re one of these people, please listen to this. You do it for a long time, you just start to think, “You know what, I got enough background, enough experience, that I can just kind of shoot from the hip, I can just kind of wing it, I can just do this spontaneously, it’ll be rich, ’cause I’m listening to the Holy Spirit, he’s giving me words right now,” and you know the reality is…
CJ: No, he’s not.
BK: It’s he’s not. [laughter] He would’ve given you words before. I mean, there are times when you say something spontaneously and it’s very powerful, but not as a norm, not as a norm. I still prepare what I’m gonna say, at least I think about it, and often write it down, but don’t look at it, don’t read it, because I do wanna engage. But I do want it to be concise. I want it to be biblical, I want it to be concise, and I want it to be personal. I want it to be from my heart, and you just can’t… I can’t do that spontaneously get all three. Just at the right moments, you’ve just said, “Yeah, I think you need to think about preparing a little bit more.”
CJ: Well, because you do have a gift of teaching and it becomes obvious when you have prepared, but what you just said, isn’t that what we fear? We fear, I fear, you fear. I’m sure David fears becoming professional.
BK: Yeah, absolutely.
CJ: So as you age, you develop a certain competence. I just fear that. May there be just something fresh, may Grace be freshly amazing to us, may this call to serve God’s people, whether through leading singing or preaching, may it just remain a wonder to us and may we also just feel an increasing weight of responsibility to prepare our hearts in private, so that we serve the people we love. And, most importantly, please and glorify God as effectively as we possibly can, so… Yeah, we wanna grow in skills where appropriate without becoming this professional person who simply is dependent on competence.
BK: Okay, here’s another question. Do you got a question?
DZ: I do.
BK: Okay, go ahead.
DZ: So, Bob, you’ve expressed your encouragement of CJ and him responding in the meeting and not preparing and engaging thoughtfully and intentionally, and how much of a help that’s been to you, but what would you speak… What would you say to a worship leader or an individual picking songs for the church that doesn’t feel that way, that feels lonely and burdened, week after week. They feel like, “I feel like I’m doing this by myself. I’m picking these songs by myself, I have no input from my lead pastor… ”
DZ: “This feels like a job. I feel burnt out.” How would you encourage someone who feels that way?
CJ: Wow, good question.
BK: That is a great question. The first thing comes to mind is, it’s always about our relationship with the Lord. It could be that person is thinking, “I need the involvement, I need the attention, I need the support of my…
BK: And whatever of my pastor. Those are all things, certainly the affirmation, encouragement are things that the Lord works through, but I have to do what I do as unto the Lord and not unto men, primarily. So that’s where the grace is gonna come, that’s where the sustaining endurance is gonna come. It’s just like, and you know what, Lord, I just wanna please you regardless. So that’s where I’d start. Just check my own heart, where is this coming from? And then I’d talk to my pastor, and maybe the person has already done this, but I just have a conversation with him. I don’t know…
DZ: How do you cultivate that relationship of openness that you’re talking about?
BK: You ask him, just say, you know what, I don’t think I can do this just by myself, I feel that I really wanna be a support to you, I really wanna encourage you, and in what your vision for the Church is, I don’t feel like I can do that as well. “If this is the way you want it, okay, I’m good, I can do this and I’m gonna seek to serve the congregation, please the Lord, do the best I can.” Some churches are like that, some pastors are like that, but I would say, I think I can do what I do better if we have some conversations about what your vision is, what your burdens are, and let him set the timetable for when that would take place. If I was to come to CJ and say, “Hey CJ, I wanna have an hour of meeting every week.” and CJ might say, “I don’t know if that will work.” But if I say, Yeah, it doesn’t work because I’m as… We’re as involved as we wanna be and need to be, and it’s just great.
CJ: Now, we’re decades on the other side…
BK: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But initially, I wanna respect my senior pastor’s schedule and preferences and desires and say… But I would communicate clearly, I would really love to talk with you and maybe it would even begin on a more foundational level, but about what do you see my role as, like how do I fit in, how do I serve the congregation? I think I’m on the same team, we’re on the same team and how do we do this together? I would love to do this together more.
DZ: Well, same question for you, CJ, how would you communicate to pastors that feel like “I’m stuck with this guy”?
CJ: Well, now you have changed up the question?
BK: That is a different question.
CJ: Oh, David.
DZ: No, I have, but not… All joking aside, all joking aside, I feel like whether he’s using it as some professional platform, or he’s just simply trying to serve, there’s a… Speak to the frustration, maybe that’s the wrong word, but the feeling that I can’t communicate to this young man that I have or this person leading the songs, how would you go about having that conversation and cultivating that relationship?
CJ: Good questions. Well, two words come to mind, definition and communication. So there needs to be clear definition, ideally on the front end before this all begins.
BK: Yes, it’s always better on the front end.
CJ: Yes, it is. But definition and communication can take place at any time, but neither are optional. Both are required. So what is lead pastor and worship leader need to have clear definition as to their roles and then clear communication as to how they can work together, and I would say with an accent on the lead pastor taking an overall responsibility, representing a functioning plurality. We haven’t gotten into plurality, but ideally, you want a functioning plurality that’s all participating to some degree, differing degrees, depending on gifting, ’cause we’re not… We have convictions about plurality, but we don’t believe everybody’s gifting is equivalent, so but we want that participation as a team, but yes, it certainly does fall uniquely on Sunday to that relationship between the lead pastor, senior pastor and the worship leader. So if the definition isn’t clear or needs to be updated, which is often the case, or there isn’t a regular pattern of communication, that needs to take place, because it’s not difficult to imagine a lead pastor saying, I don’t feel, I don’t think rather, particularly gifted to help you and that guy shouldn’t feel any obligation. I think by God’s grace, I do have some giftings to help, and that’s why I have been able to help, but I don’t think that forms a job description that every lead pastor I interact with has to consent to by any means.
BK: Let me just interrupt you and say this, a lot of those giftings are theologically driven. So you may not be a musician…
CJ: I hope that’s true.
DZ: Well, but as a musician…
CJ: You guys keep coming back to that. I am not a musician.
BK: Well, I’m sorry. Did I mention that again? That CJ’s not a musician.
CJ: No, There is…
DZ: I didn’t say anything.
CJ: Boys, untapped musical talent…
BK: Very deep down there. Someone can tap into it.
CJ: Resident in soul that you just haven’t perceived yet.
DZ: There is a YouTube videos of you playing drums.
Yeah. No. And my voice is not as bad as… But I love your mocking, but yeah, I have been in many a stairwell where I sing and I just dismiss your criticism. It is categorical, it is cruel.
BK: It’s an empty stairwell.
DZ: Where were we?
CJ: What was I gonna say?
CJ: Yeah. I don’t know. You said it, that you wanted it to be a conversation, so this is a conversation.
BK: Yes. It is a conversation.
CJ: This is how our conversations happen around here. Yeah.
BK: Yeah, and I remember what I was saying, the categories you’re dealing in are theologically driven, they’re not musical, they’re not just preference, you care about the Gospel, you care about the glory of Christ, you care about the edification of the congregation, those are all in your Bible, and so you…
CJ: Teaching role. Leadership, I think those things.
BK: Teaching role, pastoring. Yeah, there’s a list of things that you care about and you say that the music, all the music, that’s a part of that as well. So I just wanna encourage those pastors who aren’t musically gifted.
CJ: Yeah, so if you are the guy leading the singing, you need to make clear to the lead pastor, look I’m here to serve, that this first period of time, it’s not for… It doesn’t fall completely on me. I’m here to serve you.
CJ: Then that lead pastor needs to have the freedom to say, you know what, I don’t think I’m particularly gifted in this area, but that doesn’t mean he’s not responsible. He… It could mean that he needs to pursue some reading and mentoring from others, he needs to get engaged, you cannot just disengage as a senior pastor and delegate this.
DZ: That’s so good.
CJ: Bob’s gifting is obvious and pronounced, but I don’t disengage, I still participate.
BK: Let me share a quick story.
BK: I think the first year I was in Gaithersburg, Maryland, you brought three books into my office and said, “You know, I think it’d be really good if you read these.” One was engaging with God by David Peterson, which I still recommend to this day is one of the… Just a wonderful theology of worship, corporate worship, and then there was one D. A. Carson, which was an edited book, Worship, Adoration, Action, he was the editor, and then another book that I still haven’t read, but… Those two were so informational… And every time you’d go to a conference, you look in the book store, you’d look for books for me, and you’d bring me back books.
DZ: That’s awesome.
BK: And I just thought who does this? This is so great.
DZ: In the framework of a relationship that you had…
BK: Yes. Yeah, yeah.
DZ: It wasn’t… You should definitely read these books and get your act together, it was we’re in this together, we’re partnering in ministry to get…
BK: We are friends.
DZ: And you’re friends. Yeah, and I just keep coming back to that. I just… I’m so encouraged by the years of friendship the Lord has given you, but I just have a burden for those men that feel alone in their ministry, and I just think so clearly speaking to both parties about, this is a joining together for the sake of the gospel, for your church.
BK: It is something that can be cultivated…
CJ: One caution that the lead pastor, he shouldn’t be assuming that the… Or the worship leader shouldn’t be assuming the lead pastor has to be his best friend. But there does need to be some element of friendship, some consistent communication, and I think it does fall to the lead pastor to lead. And when you said you feel stuck with somebody, boy, that’s probably a whole another podcast because it’d have to be a history of evaluation to determine whether that individual is to lead the singing. But first of all, I would feel responsible if I was the senior pastor, what can I do to serve this individual? Have I served this individual effectively? Has there been a season of time of serving where there is definition and communication, sufficient training so that that evaluation is an informed one and not prematurely executed.
BK: Can we talk about trust for a minute?
BK: I know we’re running up on the end of time, but I have talked about this numerous times. Just how important it is to develop a trust of your pastor, if you’re the music guy and the trust of your musician, and we enjoy that. And it’s evidenced by God’s grace completely. But one of the signs up for me, as a… I’ve been leading music in the church for 40 plus years, CJ’s just been preaching for 40, almost 50 years, and yet there’s always engagement with what we do. So when we might be looking at a song and CJ might be… I might have done it one Sunday, and he gets back to me and says, “Yeah, I’m not sure about that song.” And so that’s gone different ways. So I remember one time you asked me about a certain song, and of course it was like one of my favorites songs, and you had a theological question about it, and so I did my research, I did my study, I thought, this is where this is coming from. And you had been affected by something, you just read, and I thought this song is not saying that, and you got back to me and said, “That’s good, I’m good with that.” But then, there have been other songs where…
CJ: We definitely have two distinct categories. The theology one matters, this one does not matter, but we should explore it. Go ahead.
BK: Where he’ll say I’m not a big fan of that song.
DZ: I just don’t like it.
BK: I just don’t like it, it’s too bouncy.
CJ: No, David it’s just the style of the song isn’t my preference, my personal preference.
DZ: Yeah, style, whatever.
CJ: So I will with affection and a smile voice that as will others on our pastoral team.
BK: It’s usually one. One other, cohorts in crime.
CJ: Jeff and I find ourselves with a similar…
BK: Cohorts in criticism.
CJ: And that is really meant more humorously, but I will say to Bob, you can do that when I’m away, you can do that.
BK: Yes, and I tell that to people and their mouths drop, their jaws drop like What, isn’t that hypocritical? No…
CJ: Do that song when I’m…
DZ: And they’re gonna quote this and give it to their lead pastor and say why don’t you think this way about the song choices. Could you leave more?
CJ: But that shouldn’t be the governing category.
CJ: And Bob knows that it’s ultimately his call. So if you would like to annoy me indefinitely by singing that song, I will endure that.
BK: And the worst was when you came up one Sunday, we sang a song, and you said, “You know, I really don’t prefer that song.” Publicly he says this, so he says well that song’s dumb.
CJ: No, no, when was that? There must have been something…
BK: Oh it was…
CJ: Oh, yes.
BK: And you said it brings back too many memories.
CJ: Yes, because that’s the only time I’ve done this.
BK: I know. I know.
CJ: We have worked together for 100 years.
BK: Yes, I know. It was so funny.
CJ: Yes, and I think I had…
BK: So I’m a little scared to do it.
CJ: I think I had plenty of people actually supporting me, that tune can’t be redeemed.
BK: Three, he had to go with three. It was redeemed.
CJ: Yeah, no, it is not.
BK: You need to get beyond your past CJ.
CJ: No I’d sang that song and I was reliving my sinful past.
BK: Understand the Lord’s redemption.
Yes, I wasn’t able to… And there’s no reason to try to redeem that tune. What’s the impulse that says we’ve got…
BK: The words were so great.
CJ: That’s fine. Find another tune. You guys are incredibly gifted.
BK: So anyway, this is our relationship.
DZ: Somehow we are coming to a close…
CJ: No find another tune, and don’t tell me about Luther and how they redeemed the tunes from the bars…
BK: I don’t use that anymore.
CJ: I don’t…
BK: I don’t think that’s true, but…
CJ: No, not that tune, and I would respectfully argue with Luther as well, if he said, “We need to somehow redeem that… ”
BK: One last point, so we’ll stop talking. I have appreciated that we’ll be talking about something, you say, Well, I think this, but then you’ll say, but you’re the guy leading, so you make the call.
CJ: Exactly. That you are.
BK: And that is trust. It instills trust, and I think it’s built on trust. And I feel much more confidence in a meeting, say, if I had to do something spontaneously, which that’s for another podcast, ’cause it’s not gonna be here, talk about just the spontaneous leadings of the Spirit at some point but not now.
CJ: Yeah, sure.
BK: But if I would do something, I have confidence that CJ will support that. And if it wasn’t good, he’ll tell me out of love and it’ll be great. But anyway, I thank God for you.
CJ: Thank you my friend.
BK: Thank you for joining us for this podcast and I hope we have you on again.
DZ: So fun, thank you.
CJ: That’s your call.
BK: That’s true.
CJ: It’s been a blast.
BK: We’ll talk about it.
DZ: Thanks so much for joining us. We’ll see you at the next episode.
BK: Thank you for listening to Sound Plus Doctrine the Podcast of Sovereign Grace music. Sovereign Grace music exists to produce Christ exalting songs and training for local churches, from local churches. For more information, free sheet music, translations and training resources you can visit us at sovereigngracemusic.org.