Responding to the Sermon With a Song

David Zimmer: Hello and welcome to the Sound Plus Doctrine Podcast. My name is David Zimmer.

Bob Kauflin: And my name’s Bob Kauflin.

DZ: And it is great to be together again.

BK: It is. It’s always great to be together.

DZ: The topic for this week, Bob, we have is responding to the sermon with a song. So a couple weeks ago, Bob and I were planning the music and the songs for Sunday morning and…

BK: And the Scriptures.

DZ: And the Scriptures.

BK: And the prayers also.

DZ: Yep. Yep. Yep. And I love that we get to do that together.

BK: It is great.

DZ: And you know, towards the end we were reading the Scripture that CJ was gonna preach on. And we were thinking about what would be a good response song for this sermon. And we have a response song for every week, we do that. Sometimes two.

BK: Yep. That’s true.

DZ: And as we were going back and forth to figure out this song, it brought up a really great dilemma of which song do we pick, what song would fit better and immediately we thought, wow, this would be a great topic for a podcast.

BK: Sure, when we have problems, we think, hey, this would be a great topic for a podcast. [laughter] Yeah, ‘Cause yeah, I had numerous conversations with people about, should you do a song after message? If you not do it, If you do, what kind? But I’ve seen two situations where I think, yeah, we really need to talk about this. One, is where you hear a Christ exalting, biblically rooted message and people have encountered God, and the person gets up afterwards and they just start making announcements like nothing has happened. I see this at a conferences frequently. But then it happens in Sunday meetings, Sunday gatherings as well. And the other is where you have this great message, Christ exalting, biblical rooted, people encounter God, and then they sing a song that has nothing to do with what just happened. It’s kind of a worship song, generic worship song. And I thought we can do better than this. [laughter]

DZ: Yes.

BK: We can think about this and it’s something that I think I’ve grown in my appreciation for over the years, because certainly it’s not the only thing you can do after a message.

DZ: Yeah. Right.

BK: I mean, I think, really a good way to end a message is to go into the Lord supper. There seems to be some pattern that was set up in the Old Testament sacrifices where you offered sacrifices for sin and that led to sacrifices of dedication and sacrifices of peace offerings where you’re sharing the meal together. That seems to make sense. You can end with just a dismissal. And I think a lot of times that happens when guys go too long, when preachers go too long.

DZ: Yes. Right.

BK: I know in the past we used to sing, plan a song, but then the message would go like, this is in our early days, like an hour and 15 minutes and we’d just go, “Okay, we’re going home”. Alright. Cut the song. Yeah, yeah. And certainly something else would be that a song isn’t the only way you can… That’s not the ultimate response to the message we’ve heard, to the truth we’ve heard. The ultimate response is the way we live.

DZ: Yes. Right.

BK: It’s not just that we have a good song at the end, but a song can reinforce that truth we’ve heard. I mean, Colossians 3:16 says, we’re to “let the word of Christ dwell in us richly, teaching and admonishing one another with all wisdom, singing, psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God”. Well, that’s what songs help us do. They help the Word of Christ, the Gospel dwell in us richly. So I think it’s a missed opportunity when people don’t sing a well thought out song after a message.

DZ: Right, right. Well, the one thing you said, having something planned, but then it always gets cut, it’s like, I’m very well familiar with that scenario. [chuckle] And it got to a point where it’s just like, well, I don’t even know if we should plan a song at the end.

BK: Yeah, yeah.

DZ: But I realized that every time when there was either time for a song or I was in a context where they did a song at the end, I thought it was so helpful and so effective in, I think something, you said reinforcing the truth.

BK: Yeah. So why is it so helpful?

DZ: Well, that’s a really unbelievable moment, if the song can match what we have just been steeping in for 45 minutes, and then you get to respond to what you just heard, it’s like it builds your faith to go and to apply it, like you said.

BK: Yes.

DZ: So I think, for me I think, wow! That just… Sometimes music has the power to do that. It says those truths in a cementing way.

BK: Yeah. Yeah, it kind of confirms them.

DZ: Right. A lyric comes to mind because you put a melody to it.

BK: Yes.

DZ: So I think that’s what has affected me so much.

BK: Yeah. I think it helps us feel the truth. So, we hear the message and often we’re affected, but listening to messages is a mental activity. We’re taking in truth, we’re taking in your doctrine, and we can be affected, but songs specifically are meant to do that. They’re meant to reinforce that truth by bringing it down to this level of affection. Music affects us emotionally. And when you combine it with biblical truth, it plants it in, like you said, in a more cementing way. And I think, a song after a message can also kind of highlight the thrust of the message?

DZ: Yeah. Right.

BK: You know, whether your message is 30, 40, 50 minutes, 25, whatever, it can say, “This is what we just heard and remember this.” and then provide a further encounter with the Lord where we’re not just hearing, we’re responding to him and it’s a grace filled response. It’s not just a song that says, okay, now we’re gonna go do this…

DZ: Right.

BK: And I heard a pastor say this recently, I thought it was so good I wrote it down. The task of the pastor, and I would say the person leading the music, is not to wield the word more authoritatively by emphasizing the imperative, but to lead people in the way of humility by ministering the glory of the Indicative.

DZ: That’s good.

BK: Now, what that means imperative, indicative, the imperatives are the commands “do this” “don’t do this”. The indicative are, this is what has been done. This is what is real, this is what exists. And I find sometimes people will plan songs that are a response song. Okay, we’re gonna go out and do whatever.

DZ: Yes.

BK: But even then we want people glorying in the indicative.

DZ: Right.

BK: Jesus has done this. He’s come to earth, he’s died in your place for your sins. He’s risen from the dead. He’s ascended to the Father’s right hand. He’s interceding for us. He’s coming back. These are things, the realities that are true, that shape our lives, and best position us to go out then and live for the glory of God.

DZ: Right, I think the imperatives, there can be a temptation to go, I got this. I can do this.

BK: Yes, yeah, yeah. I’ve heard what I need to know, just let me loose.

DZ: Yeah. And would you say even in our application of the message, we go, yeah, I’m gonna do this better.

BK: I think that is the bane of the modern church that’s seeking to please the Lord. But doing it in a way that’s more moralistic than gospel centered. We just think, yeah, we have the information. Now we do it.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: No, Jesus said, apart from me, you can do nothing. And Paul, the apostle Paul and Peter, are always rooting us in Christ. We are, I think, several 160 times Paul talks about how we are in Christ in him. It’s because of our union with Christ that we’re able to do anything, so, as we’re seeking to serve and obey the Lord, we’re doing that in the grace that God has given us in Christ. Paul says, in 2 Corinthians 12, I worked harder than all of them, I’m talking about the other apostles, yet not I, but the grace of God that was within me. And it’s so hard to find songs that do that. One is “All I Have is Christ”, “Now Lord, I would be yours. Third verse, Lord, I wouldn’t be yours alone and live so all might see. The strength to follow your commands could never come from me, O Father, use this ransomed life in any way you choose, and let my song forever be my only boast is you.” “Yet Not I But Through Christ in Me” by CityAlight is another song that just so wonderfully displays the grace of God as the root and foundation of all that we do, all our desires to live for him. The very title says that “Yet Not I But Through Christ in Me”, anything I do, anything I accomplish, it’s gonna be because of what Christ has done through me.

DZ: Yes. Well, before we sort of get into the practicals of, okay, we’re choosing to be intentional about this, this final song, and how it’s tied to the sermon we just heard. Just going back really quick. You said something in passing that was, the sermon will run too long. You were consistently facing that. How would you encourage pastors that are listening, worship leaders that are listening? How would you encourage them to have that conversation of, I feel like this is really effective, but I also don’t want to overstep my bounds. Just how would you communicate that?

BK: Well, it certainly needs communication and I’d say, a common theology in terms of what’s happening in the meeting. And by that I mean, all of the meeting is worship, it’s not just the singing. The preaching is, even the announcements can be worship. The prayer, the Scripture reading, all those things are meant to magnify God’s greatness in Christ to the power of the Holy Spirit, to magnify His goodness, His greatness, His glory. And so, we’re all on the same team. We’re all doing this together. But there are complementary ways of doing it.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: Praying is different from singing, is different from preaching, is different from reading Scripture, is different from an exhortation where we might be encouraging the church, exhorting the church. They’re all parts of the whole. I would encourage, whether you’re the pastor or the music leader, whatever your role is, to just have that conversation, say, how can we serve one another? How can we help one another? And I think a pastor who will not exercise the self-discipline, self-control to shorten his messages, you’re not allowing for God’s grace, God’s Spirit to work in other ways other than through you. Now, we believe that the sermon is the high point of the meeting. This is where we hear from God, hear from his word. But we’re doing that in all the parts of the meeting. We’re hearing from God in different ways. We’re hearing from his word. We’re rehearsing the gospel all these different ways. So singing provides a way that my message doesn’t for people to respond, and again, that truth to be cemented in their hearts. And I’ve seen CJ, he used to preach an hour and 15 minutes. And like I said, sometimes we just go, well, no song today, because he cares about the people who are serving in children’s ministry.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: Which is something we need to keep in mind.

DZ: Yes, right.

BK: He’s exercised self control. So his messages are generally 45 minutes, sometimes 35, but at which point we had to say: Stop! Stop making your message short! They’re fine like they are! But that allows for a song, we always wanna include that for the reasons we mentioned earlier that a song after the message can help reinforce the truth, help people feel the truth, highlight the main points of the message, allow people further to meditate on the points of the message and provide a way for them to respond in a grace-filled way as a springboard to living in light of the message. So yeah, you just gotta have that conversation where you’re saying: Hey, I wanna serve you and we wanna serve each other, most of all, we wanna serve the people for the glory of God.

DZ: Right. Well, the point about harmony between all of those elements, the music side, the prayer, the sermon, I think it’s just so worth reiterating. I heard you talking to a pastor, in passing, we don’t wanna just shew everything off, I just wanna preach. Everything else just falls away. Or doing actually the exact opposite. There’s a lot of churches that just keep the message so short so that we can just have this extended time of worship. So, those working in harmony, I just think is such a good point. And how are we emphasizing all of these areas, even though the preaching is gonna be the high point, we’re emphasizing prayer.

BK: Yes, yeah. Every part is important.

DZ: Yeah. Emphasizing this point. I think that’s so helpful.

BK: Well, I hope so.

DZ: Okay, so getting to the practicals, well, I’m gonna say this, how would we do it at Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville?

BK: Okay, hopefully you know, but I guess it’s for people to listen.

DZ: Yeah, it’s for people that don’t…

[laughter]

BK: So, when you and I plan the liturgy, the service order every week. And we do it on Wednesday morning. Somebody asked me recently: How far in advance do you guys plan? Like Wednesday before the meeting for that week, and there are a number of reasons we do it that way, which I think we’ve shared in another podcast, but a brief overview is you would keep people spontaneous, we always build those songs and Scriptures after the previous week’s message, we wanna hear that message before. So we plan it, on Planning Center, we keep a Google Doc of the service order, ’cause for different reasons, I can do a search better on the Google Doc.

DZ: It’s so helpful.

BK: And then I send it out to all the elders, we have seven, eight elders just added another one, here at Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville. And then they get back to me, I always title this email: Tentative Plan for Sunday and then the date, ’cause I want them to know this. Hey, here’s where we’re at. If you have any questions, changes or suggestions, just let me know.

DZ: Yeah. Well, Has ever been a moment where a pastor has gotten back and said, I feel like the song might be better with the…

BK: Yes, occasionally that happens, yeah. Or, “Hey, can I do the Scripture instead?” For call the worship. Yeah, sure. “Can I lengthen it to here?” I work with Jeff Purswell, who is a theological genius. It’s nice to have him on your team. And he will say: You know, that Scripture really begins here. And I say: Okay, great! Do it there, that’s great. But the last song is often one that whoever’s preaching will have input on or not, and I know CJ has always been concerned about what kinds of songs we do after the message, specifically, what song are we gonna do after the message. And we could do some illustrations, we’ve talked about that illustration a few weeks ago when we were planning. It was a message that Steve, one of our elders did on the last part of Revelation, we were finishing Revelation. And it was “Lord Jesus, Come.”, and, “the Spirit and the bride say Come.” and…

DZ: Revelation 22:6-21?

BK: Yeah, 6-21. “Behold, I’m coming soon… ” And “Behold, I’m coming soon”, he says again. “The spirit and the bride say “Come.”. So there’s a lot of emphasis on Jesus coming. He’s coming back. Fact that ESV titles that section “Jesus is Coming”. I think the first song we considered for that was Behold Our God, which is a more general… I’m trying to find it here. Yeah, a more general. Who has held the oceans in His hands? Who has numbered every grain of sand? And it didn’t start where the message would have ended, which is Lord Jesus come. So we said: No, that’s not quite it. I think that the attraction was: You will reign forever, let Your glory fill Earth.

DZ: Yes, a lot of the Revelation series has been the Kingly reign and the Eternal reign.

BK: Yes, yes, yes. And so, then someone suggested “All Hail the Glorious Christ”, which is another Sovereign Grace song. “Above the Earth and Heaven’s angels, over kings and all of our plans, when every rival throne has fallen, You will stand.” And it ends with, “And on that day upon Your mountain, you’ll gather Your redeemed, and we will feast and give all glory to the King.” And again, that was a good song, it could fit, but it didn’t start really where the sermon ended. So what we ended up with was “When Christ Our Life Appears”. Well, there it is.

DZ: Yeah. He’s coming back.

BK: Yeah. “When Christ our life appears, our hope will be complete, our longings finally rest as we fall at His feet. When Jesus comes to reign, restoring everything, our tears will turn to tides of praises to our King.” And I remember when this song was written at a songwriter’s retreat. I had made an appeal that someone writes something on Colossians 3, “When Christ who is our life appears then we also shall appear with him in glory.” That’s such a great passage. We gotta get a song on that.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: And man, was I happy when this song came out.

DZ: And it is literally the exact translation. [chuckle]

BK: And it’s so well written. And it’s triumphant and it reinforces, this is going to be a glorious event, and all these things are gonna happen.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: So the final verse is, “When Christ our life appears, these trials that weighed us down will fade and fall away as he receives our crowns. Death will disappear, its rule and reign destroyed. I love this beneath the weight of glory and eternal joy.”

DZ: Eternal joy, yeah.

BK: We’re longing for that day when we will see Christ, our Savior, we will behold the glory of our King forever.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: Which speaks to a couple of things. One, we wanna have songs that say specific things, we’re not just trying to sing songs that sound worshipful.

DZ: Yeah, good.

BK: It says specific thing. So that’s the moment when we thought, Hey, you know what? It really matters what you do after a message, it’s a good thing to do a song after a message. There are good reasons for singing a song after a message. So the first thing to think about is the content, what did the message actually say, and then what does the song actually say, those two together. Yeah, it’s just really important.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: This past Sunday, we had a situation where I had picked up or we had three songs possibly to end the message with, CJ preached on Psalm 150.

DZ: Right.

BK: Let everything that has breath praise the Lord, so I’m thinking, Okay, just celebratory. So we taught a song from our new album “How Great” – (Psalm 145).

DZ: Yeah, I’ll bless your name oh God, yeah.

BK: Yes. With everything that’s within me, I’ll bless your name oh God, each day that I awake from dawn to setting sun, your greatness I will proclaim.

DZ: It is a lot about, yes.

BK: Yeah, celebratory. But it doesn’t really talk about Jesus. And in the message, CJ ended up tying in Psalm 150 with the praise and worship that is going on around the throne, in Revelation. ‘Cause we have just finished Revelation.

DZ: Right. Well, ending with everything that has breath.

BK: Yeah, praise the lord, yes.

DZ: The crown of creation, man is going to praise him, but he made that point of everything is going to praise Him.

BK: So another song we thought of was “Oh For a Thousand Tongues to Sing” Oh for a thousand tongues…

DZ: Singing?

BK: Which would be great, and then “Jesus, There’s No One Like You”, there’s no song we could sing to honor the weight of your glory.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: And you know what we ended up singing? I got up there and said, You know what? We had three songs picked to end this message with choosing between. None of them is gonna work. [laughter] We’re gonna go back to a song we started the meeting with, which was “All Creatures of Our God and King”.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: Which as CJ was preaching I thought Oh! This is the song, all creatures of our God and king, Lift up your voice with us saying, Oh, praise Him.

DZ: Yes.

BK: Hallelujah. And then the third verse, wonderful verse, that was added by the the Bairds and Steven Altrogge.

DZ: Then who shall fall on bended knees.

BK: Well, before that, all the redeemed washed by His blood, come and rejoice in His great love, and then yeah, at the very end.

DZ: Yes.

BK: Then who shall fall on bended knees, all creatures of our God and king. And then from there, we went into Andrew Peterson’s, “Is He Worthy?” Which, Oh man, I mean, I just looked out during that song and saw numerous people tears streaming down their faces, what’s happening? The truth that was just preached from God’s Word is making its way into people’s hearts.

DZ: Yes, Yeah, it’s not just that we’re stirring them.

BK: Emotionally.

DZ: Yes, and both of those songs, “All Creatures” and, “Is He Worthy”, did that. It was like, Oh, that’s what CJ preached about, that’s what he just said, that’s what the word of God just said.

BK: Yes. But we didn’t start with is he worthy, because the emotional tone is… So I think we’re talking about just things to consider when picking that last song.

DZ: Yes, you said the content. Yeah.

BK: First is the content. Second would be the emotional tone of the message, so we didn’t start with is He worthy because CJ ended with, Let everything that has breath praise the Lord. Do you feel the world is broken.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: It just didn’t make any sense.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: So we start with All Creatures of our God.

DZ: Big intro.

BK: Yeah, a big celebratory. And so often we miss that, someone might mention, like a preacher might mention a song, quote a song, and the music guy’s going, thinking, Oh well, that’s what we need to do, but that might be not the right song to do.

DZ: Yeah. [chuckle]

BK: Because just the lines work, but the tone doesn’t, the emotional tone.

DZ: That’s so subtle, but it’s so effective. Matching the tones.

BK: It matters, yeah.

DZ: Yeah, It really does.

BK: You don’t wanna get people whiplash when you do the song.

DZ: Yes, I’m so excited to sing.

BK: Yeah.

DZ: And then it is, or the opposite, yeah. Where it’s ending very down and I think sometimes song leaders go, okay, well, we’re gonna send them out, so let’s get this party.

BK: Yes, this is my moment, baby! I am gonna rock your face off!

DZ: It really matters how you transition out of that song, because when you go to talk to people, it’s also informing.

BK: Yeah.

DZ: How you’re gonna talk to people and who you’re talking to. It’s very effective.

BK: Yep, yep, yep.

DZ: Yep.

BK: Another thing that we think about, and we should all think about is familiarity.

DZ: Right.

BK: You finish, a message is done, and you want people to be able to respond from their heart without learning a new song.

DZ: Yeah.

BK: So I’ve seen guys introduce songs after a meeting, I’ve done that once, I think in my life, it was at a conference.

[laughter]

DZ: So it was memorable.

BK: It was memorable. It was in the UK actually, and a guy from Nigeria was talking about how his family had been attacked and his house had been burned down, and I taught the song, “Jesus, I my cross have taken all to leave and follow you; destitute, despised, forsaken. Thou from all my hence shall be.

DZ: One of my favorite hymns.

BK: Thou from hence my all shall be, it just was the right song. And it was simple, it wasn’t complicated, six verses long. But I just knew by the time we finished it would just be, this is the right thing to do to endure the burning of my home, the suffering of my family for the sake of the gospel, but normally it’s a familiar song that most of the people would know. And as far as the band goes, I like the band to know the last song. And we usually, we’ll practice the last song, but I would rather do a song that fits, I think it’s better to do a song that fits the message, even if the band doesn’t know it, because it’s the truth that’s gonna last.

DZ: But the congregation knows it?

BK: The congregation knows it. Yeah. So they’re familiar with it. So I might just lead it from my piano or if you play guitar lead them too.

DZ: Yeah. So you’re saying that even if the band doesn’t know it but the congregation is familiar with it, you would much rather just lead it on a piano. In most cases, when we pick that last song, like you said, we rehearse it. Like we play it, we know it. But in the off chance that you might completely screech it out.

BK: Come up with a new song. Right? So I’m listening during the message. I’m always weighing, is this the right song to end with? Is this the right song to end with? And I’ll get guys texting me sometimes, you will text me sometimes, other guys text me.

DZ: We bug you.

BK: How about this song? My daughter will text me sometimes. Hey, how about this song? Okay, okay. I hear you. I hear you. And I appreciate that. It’s like, ’cause people are listening. Yeah. What do we wanna sing right now? What is gonna seal this word to our hearts? And then, I think, time is the last thing I consider, you do wanna be sensitive if you have a children’s ministry to people watching the kids. And we used to go 15, 20 minutes over and it was like, oh. [laughter] And if you worked in the children’s ministry, you know what that 15, 20 minutes seems like three hours, okay. We’ve run out things to do now. Okay. What are we gonna do? Alright.

[laughter]

DZ: Amazing.

BK: So, we try to finish like five minutes before ending time, our meetings are an hour and a half, and we try to allow enough time for the pastor to preach. And then that five minutes for a song and a Benediction at the very end, we don’t want that time to be really long. We do want people going out with the word of God, both in that was preached and in the benediction.

DZ: So, I’m sorry. So after you do that song, We would do Scripture reading?

BK: Yeah, yeah. That last benediction, which is usually one or two verses related to the message, not the song we just sang, but hopefully they flow together. But we will sometimes, this has happened more than on one occasion, where we’ll finish and CJ, my beloved senior pastor will be out there just kinda waiting, just eyes down and I’m thinking he’s not coming up here. [laughter] And it’s obvious he wants us to do another song because we have time. Sometimes he’d come up and say, Hey, I worked on getting a shorter message so that we could sing two songs at the end.

DZ: That’s so great.

BK: Now, he’s getting better at saying, Hey… Like, this past Sunday, he said, yeah, we won’t sing two songs. We’re gonna sing three songs.

DZ: Oh okay, great.

BK: So I was prepared. I just didn’t know what they were gonna be. [laughter] Now, you may not work like this in your church, you may plan things out months in advance, and which is great. Just think to allow for the healthy tension between planning and spontaneity, both are empowered by the Spirit. Both are enabled by the Spirit, that we wanna plan well, then also be sensitive that moment to changes. And we don’t have a songbook or anything that we use. At the end, I think probably some people could be thinking, well, yeah, How do you work that? Sometimes I’ll text it to people, on Planning Center you can pull the chart up, but other times we’ll just kind of go by ear.

DZ: Yeah. But I think an area we can all grow in what you said is sensitivity. Just the understanding that people are affected, just because you do the same thing week in and week out doesn’t mean that you can’t grow in a sensitivity towards how is this translating?

BK: Yes. How are people… are they being affected?

DZ: Are they being affected? Yeah. And so, I have benefited so much being at our church and doing liturgy this way, and so, I’m encouraged and I pray that this is encouraging to you, who’s listening, but yeah, that we would grow in a sensitivity and what the Lord is wanting to do in our midst on Sunday mornings.

BK: Yeah. Amen.

DZ: So thank you, Bob.

BK: Thank you.

DZ: Thank you for this podcast. Thanks for listening. And we’ll see you again.