Bob Kauflin: There can be a tendency for your musical limitations to drive your theological diet. Meaning that well, if a song doesn’t have an orchestral arrangement we’re not gonna do it.
David Zimmer: Welcome to Sound Plus Doctrine, the podcast of Sovereign Grace Music. Where we explore what the Bible has to say about music and worship in the church and encourage those who plan, lead and participate in their Sunday gatherings each week.
DZ: Hello, welcome back to the Sound Plus Doctrine podcast. My name is David Zimmer.
BK: My name is Bob Kauflin.
DZ: Great to have you here.
BK: Thank you.
DZ: Great to have you listening and watching if you do. Bob, what are we talking about today?
BK: Today we are talking about how do we use orchestral instruments on Sunday morning.
DZ: Orchestral instruments?
BK: Because of the question that someone… Actually two people sent in.
DZ: Great.
BK: Yeah. Orchestral like violin, cello, tuba, those kinds of things.
DZ: Tuba. Percussion, timpanis.
BK: Percussion, those kind of things. Yes. Those kind of things.
DZ: [laughter] That’s awesome.
BK: But before we get into our topic today, I wanna read this email that we received from a 30-year-old woman with… Well, you’ll find out who she is. Which I thought was so encouraging and yeah, just wanted to read it.
DZ: It’s great, good.
BK: “Hi Sound Plus Doctrine team, that’s everybody. I just wanted to send a heartfelt thank you for the weekly encouragement I receive from your podcast. Actually, listening to this podcast has led me to the decision to leave my church’s worship team”.
DZ: Okay.
[laughter]
BK: That’s what we’re in.
DZ: That’s our goal you guys.
BK: That we’re in the business of getting people off their worship teams doing some worthwhile. No, that’s well, actually, that is actually what happened, but… “I have served on our worship team as a vocalist for several years, and I’ve been feeling the burden weighing on my family”. So this was in response to our podcast on a worship leader and his family. Although while, well this woman isn’t a worship leader, she’s on the team, so she’s a part of what happens every Sunday and had to think through these… Had to think through what we talked about.
DZ: Wow.
BK: So she did. “I’m 30 years old and have two young children, ages three and one. My husband is a medical professional who works many weekends. So it’s just a hectic time in our lives”.
DZ: I can imagine.
BK: “Recently, my three-year-old daughter nearly made it up to the platform while scream-crying ‘Mommy’ as I returned for the final song of the gathering. And here I am thinking my harmonies might be a distraction”.
DZ: Oh, there you go. [laughter]
BK: “Your podcast has helped me to see the hoops my family has been jumping through and the stipulations I’ve been placing on our worship leader so that I can participate. I now realize that I’ve been neglecting my most important ministry, my family, to participate in another, which can easily be fulfilled by someone else in our congregation. Thank you for being faithful to share biblical truth. I know the Holy Spirit has used your ministry to speak to my heart”.
DZ: Wow.
BK: I was so encouraged…
DZ: That is so encouraging.
BK: To receive that email. One for her humility in just examining her life and asking the questions, “Am I supposed to be doing this? Am I giving my attention to the most important things?” So as she asked those questions, she realized, “You know what? I can be a part of the musicians in the church, but I don’t need to be. I need to do what God’s telling me to do.” So I don’t know if that might affect someone else as…
DZ: That’s so awesome.
BK: They hear that. But I was greatly encouraged by that.
DZ: It’s so encouraging also to hear that this podcast is serving people that are outside a context of just worship leaders or just pastors.
BK: Yes. Or being musicians. Yes.
DZ: Yeah. Or yeah, an instrumentalist in your church. I just… That’s so encouraging. It’s so encouraging to receive those emails and God is just so good to give us this opportunity to try to share what we’ve learned or what we’re thinking through on a Sunday to Sunday basis, so…
BK: Amen.
DZ: Thankful for that.
BK: Yeah. One of the things this podcast exists for is to apply what we read in Scripture and what God says to us. And so often the theological principles are separated from the methodology and real problems develop when that happens, because we start doing things… We have practices that we don’t have a theological basis for, but actually we probably do because they usually have some reason behind them. And we try and trace those reasons back to what God has been very clear about. So God has been very clear about a mom caring for her children. So that’s what’s in his Word. But he hasn’t been clear on you should be singing in your band on Sunday mornings.
DZ: Right. Right, right.
BK: So she’s distinguishing that and I think making good decisions.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Now you can be a mom with young kids and serve in the band on your church.
DZ: Yeah. Absolutely.
BK: But she just saw it was too much for her and her family, so yes. Thank you.
DZ: Yes.
BK: All right. So we’re talking about how do we use orchestra instruments on Sunday morning. This was sent in as a question from John. And if you wanna send in any questions send it to soundplusdoctrine@sovereigngrace.com.
DZ: Yep.
BK: Then we will get it. Can’t answer all the questions, but we try to get to as many as we can.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: So he says, or ask “What place do orchestra instruments have in corporate worship? We have a couple of church members from larger churches where they participated in music ministry that incorporated orchestral style arrangements. Our church uses simple arrangements each Sunday, acoustic guitar, piano, cajon, vocals. I don’t have a desire or skill to start any sort of orchestra. We’ll talk about that. However, they’ve expressed an interest in serving as part of our church’s music ministry. I don’t wanna squash their desire to serve the church. But on the other hand, I’m not even sure how I would incorporate their instruments, trumpet, and violin. Additionally, I’m not sure how adding this kind of instrumentation serves congregational singing”.
DZ: Another good question.
BK: Yeah. Yeah. “As the worship leader for my church, can you help me think through this situation?” Now that was linked to another question or similar to another question sent in by Eric. He said, “What can string players do to enhance the congregational singing? I try to be mindful that all parts of the church worship team exists to encourage the congregation towards singing. Therefore, I don’t wanna be a distraction.” Oh, this is… He plays multiple instruments, violin, cello, and one other instrument. So he’s asking, first, how do I manage playing those different instruments on a Sunday?
DZ: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
BK: But then he is asking a broader question of how does this even help the singing? “Hopefully, though, the strings are encouraging people to sing and make melody themselves also observe some of your recordings contain strings and wonder if you have thoughts on when, whether to include them, especially if it’s for more than just stylistic variety.” So.
DZ: That’s great.
BK: Yeah.
DZ: I mean, thank you.
BK: There are a lot of stuff to talk about.
DZ: It is. Thank you, John and Eric for being so intentional with your church.
BK: Yes. Yes.
DZ: And how you’re thinking through these things. So great.
BK: We pray, this is a help to you. And others who might be going through this. So there are different scenarios with orchestra instruments. The one was mentioned by John and that is, big churches with big orchestras. You were part of a big church, David.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Big orchestra, what was that experience like?
DZ: Great.
BK: Okay. And there are also…
[laughter]
BK: Maybe I’ll fill that out.
DZ: I knew you were gonna do that, I’ve known you for too long. Yeah, it was really great. I was at a church in Sun Valley, Grace Community that had an orchestra every Sunday. And we sang from a hymnal every Sunday. So there were orchestrations for each song beginning to end. Sometimes even we had a special song in the middle of that time where someone would sing and there was an orchestration accompanying them as well. I thought… And a huge choir too, I thought it was big and majestic and it’s wonderful to sing the hymns that way.
DZ: I also really love an acoustic guitar and a smaller ensemble and I feel like most churches like ours, we don’t have even the size or the people for an orchestra or a big choir. So it can be kind of impractical for smaller churches to try to do that. And I think that’s what John’s kind of saying, “Hey, people are coming from this big context, how can they serve?”
BK: Yep. Let me tap on that. The big orchestra, you mentioned big orchestra and then also like, like acoustic guitar, a small thing. What is the difference for you? What are some of the differences in like, why not a big orchestra every Sunday.
DZ: For every song?
BK: Yeah, yeah.
DZ: Yeah. Man, there’s so many ways I could answer that. I feel like there’s an opportunity that happens when it’s stripped down where you can hear the singing, the congregational singing better.
BK: Let me make just a point there. A lot of critique has been leveled at modern bands for being so loud that you can’t hear the singing that can happen with an orchestra.
DZ: Absolutely. That can happen with an organ. [laughter]
BK: Yeah. Oh, I’ve been in those meetings. Yeah.
DZ: Yeah. So, I think that’s one thing and gosh, I mean, there’s so much I could say, but I would feel like that would be my main point.
BK: Okay. Well, one that comes to mind is just emotional dynamics. And the way music works, everything isn’t always full on.
DZ: Yeah. For sure.
BK: And hearing like a guitar and a voice or a smaller band, whatever, it’s a different feel. It’s more inviting in some ways. Rather than having the entire orchestral sound, not that there aren’t dynamics in the orchestral sound, but it’s full and you don’t want people, you don’t want 30 people sitting up there, most of them sitting up there doing nothing. So they tend, the parts tend to be written. So they’re doing something. And there is an inviting quality about music that’s less full. So that’s just a thought if you’re in a big church with a big orchestra, maybe the orchestra doesn’t have to play every song ’cause here’s another point and that is, there can be a tendency for your musical limitations to drive your theological diet. Meaning that, well, if the song doesn’t have an orchestral arrangement, we’re not gonna do it. I’ve talked to people like that…
DZ: Multiple.
BK: I may have mentioned on this podcast.
DZ: Yeah. Multiple worship leaders. There’s a tendency to go to a praise church or whatever, and it’s like, “Well, they have an orchestration, for this song”. I probably wouldn’t typically do, but really convenient that it’s there.
BK: Well, Yeah. That’s true. That’s true.
[laughter]
DZ: As opposed to picking the songs that, well, exactly what you said, you wanna sing this song on Sunday because you know, this is gonna serve your people. You’re now forced to either write your own arrangement, which I have friends that do that. And they do a fantastic job.
BK: Yes. Ryan Foglesong.
DZ: Ryan Foglesong comes to mind first.
BK: Plays bass in a lot of our albums.
DZ: Yeah. He’s he’s played bass with us and just brilliant arranger. And he does that ’cause he knows I wanna sing this song. But if you don’t have that genius or talent and gifted to do that with your people, it can kind of pigeonhole you.
BK: That’s right. It limits you.
DZ: It limits you.
BK: And our primary concern on a Sunday morning needs to be at least for singing music that the word of Christ dwell in people richly, so we have theological categories driving the words of the songs we choose to sing it can’t be a musical… Like the music can’t be the determining factor. It shouldn’t be the determining factor.
DZ: Yes. Exactly.
BK: So anyway, all right. So the question he’s asking, how do you involve these instrumentalists? Let me share some of my history. I was in a big church about 3000. I think when I came there, it was about 2000. And at that point they were barely using any instrumentalists and we had some instrumentalists in the church who like were professionals, like in orchestras and…
DZ: Wow.
BK: We weren’t using them at all.
DZ: Wow.
BK: So we started incorporating them over time. We had a sax player, we had a quartet actually, four brothers… Was it four brothers, three brothers and a sister? And we would just use them at different times. Sometimes, we wouldn’t use them every song. We wouldn’t use them every Sunday. So occasionally we have an orchestra Sunday, when I say orchestra Sunday, I mean we would have like 10 instruments, maybe.
[laughter]
BK: But generally we’d have one instrument up there. So to the specific question, how do I start incorporating them? Well, first he says, “I don’t really have a desire, what did he say? [chuckle] to start any sort of orchestra.” That’s great, you don’t need to start an orchestra.
DZ: Yes. Right.
BK: And you don’t wanna squash their desires to serve the church. You know, this is a trumpet and violin we are talking about. So first, let’s say, the fact that someone wants to serve, they play an instrument, they wanna serve, doesn’t mean they have to serve. Just a… Important distinction because you have an oboe player in your church, doesn’t need they have to play on a Sunday. Now in the big church I was a part of, I started coming up with ways they could serve, some could only read notes. So they would only play on Sundays that we could have stuff written out. But the others could play by ear and I started having them play on different Sundays, different songs. And, that was… That really added to what we did. And I’ll talk about that in terms of what different instruments add. But I would start by probably having them play like in rehearsal.
DZ: Yeah. Good.
BK: And not so much on a Sunday morning. So we just auditioned, or… Yeah, we auditioned a flute player in our church, here in Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville on Sunday morning. And, it was great. I had her come in for the last 15 minutes and she wasn’t even using monitors, but she was in our… We put a mic on her and I just started listening to what she played. First, her tone was fantastic, she had a sense of when to play when not to play, which if you’re gonna play by ear, one of the things you need to realize is there will be times where your not playing is as important as the fact that you play.
DZ: Oh yeah. Just because you can doesn’t mean you should.
BK: Exactly.
[laughter]
BK: That’s true for every instrument. Isn’t it?
DZ: Really quick. Can you say play by ear? What does that mean?
BK: Without any notes. So you’re just using…
DZ: On a page.
BK: You have chord charts… Yeah. Chord charts with letters of chords on the page.
DZ: Yes.
BK: No notes.
DZ: Yes.
BK: And most instrumentalists, trumpet, violin, cello, oboe, sax, whatever, they typically learn from notes.
DZ: Yes.
BK: It’s written out. And some, a lot of classical musicians who are trained classically, they freeze when they’re asked to play by ear.
DZ: Another way of saying that is like improvising?
BK: Improvising. Yeah.
DZ: Oh, okay. So freezing because, “Well, it’s not there. I can’t play it.”
BK: That’s right. What can I play? But the reality is if you know just the smallest bit of theory. You can learn how to play by ear or without notes.
DZ: Yes.
BK: The first thing to do would be to get a… An idea of the numbers of notes in the scale, so one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, in every key or in the keys you typically play in. So, what’s the third in the key of C, well that’s E, what’s the third in the key of F, well that’s A, well, and so know those number scales. Knowing the circle of fifths can help, just get… Move your way around in terms of what you’re doing. Yeah, but that’d be the, that’d be the biggest thing. And so then you start listening to what others have done, listen to recordings. And most instrumentalists tend to start by just playing the melody, which is fine. It’s just not gonna have the same kind of impact that it would if you were playing something more intentional. And so with this flute player, she had beautiful tone, and could play the gaps. And when I say play the gaps, I mean when you have singing going on, you don’t necessarily need to have another melody instrument going on.
DZ: Yes.
BK: Playing the gaps is like the lines between lines of a song, the space between the lines of a song, the space at the end of a chorus before a verse. Those spaces where no one’s singing, what do you do right there? So this past Sunday, we did have a cello player. And Bethany, she’s played on a number of our acoustic, recordings. She… And I talked to her and said, “Bethany, that was great right there. Once you play right there, not, you know, not when we’re singing, just step right there.” And what can help is to play something melodically memorable. Rather than just like the chord or, you know, the root note of or the chord or the scale of the chord or the, the chord itself. Play something melodically memorable. If you’re, “In Christ alone… ”
[vocalization]
BK: Which I always use, let me use another song.
[laughter]
BK: What’s another song we might use? For instance.
DZ: We’re thinking about… We’re gonna be re-recording, Behold, our God.
BK: Okay. Behold, our God.
DZ: And that lead that’s played typically.
[vocalization]
BK: You could play that for sure. I mean, that’s pretty easy ’cause that’s one already…
DZ: ‘Cause it’s not the melody and someone crafted it for you.
BK: Yes, yes.
DZ: But you can also take that same melody, which is, I think what you were just about to say and you can embellish it. Where you can play something similar or you can use that as a launching pad to play something else.
BK: Yes.
[vocalization]
BK: Just same thing, rhythmically, but is just a little different.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: Learning to incorporate someone who wants to play, if they don’t play by ear, they… Well, I have always told instrumentalists, if you want to play on a Sunday morning, you have to play without notes.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: I don’t… There’s some leaders who would write up parts for their instrumentalists every Sunday, and I wouldn’t want John to feel like he has to do that. I could do that, but I don’t think that’s the best investment of my time. Where I think I wanna invest my time is planning the Sunday meeting, thinking about what scriptures we would be reading and how things are connected, all those kinds of things. Musical decisions are secondary for me, now leading the music in my church is not my main job. Sovereign Grace Music is my main job. So I’m kind of like a bi-vocational, elder here. But I just don’t wanna give my time to that. So I say, “Well, if you wanna play you’ll have to learn to play by ear”. And that’s, those are some of the things I was mentioning earlier about learning the notes of the scale.
DZ: Yes very helpful.
BK: What they are and learning to play in the gaps are pretty important to learn how to do that.
DZ: Super helpful. I think one thing I would add to what you said, for John to encourage him is… When Bethany even played on Sunday on the cello, we didn’t have an electric.
BK: Yeah, yeah, which is helpful.
DZ: So I think that is one creative way that you can use different instruments on your team, maybe it’s not a drum set, but maybe it’s a cajon, or maybe it’s more of a percussion instrument. Like I know people use Djembe’s or congas maybe it’s not an electric guitar, it’s a cello. And that can fill that register, that space, really nicely in a new, fresh and different way and you can do that with a bunch of instruments that could be a trumpet, or… So it doesn’t have to be everything all at once, that’s my point.
BK: Well, exactly. Someone described it as, you have a pie and you have the pieces of the pie, everybody up there on the platform is the, a piece of the pie, it’s not quite the same because different instruments share parts of the audio spectrum.
DZ: Right.
DZ: But it’s a good, good analogy to keep in mind. So if there are five members of the band, I probably only need to be paying like 20, 40% of the time. I don’t, certainly don’t need to be playing 100% of the time, maybe it’s more applicable to like melody instruments. So electric guitar might be a lead. A piano might be a lead, right and your solo instrument might be a lead. Well now, if you three are sharing that space, you really need to talk about, well, who’s gonna do the lead there.
DZ: Exactly.
BK: So that’ll for us, that’ll change from Sunday to Sunday.
DZ: Absolutely.
BK: And I might say to, the solo instrument, the violin, the trumpet, the cello, whatever, “Why don’t you take that fill there? Why don’t you take the fills for this song? And I’ll hang back”.
DZ: That is so helpful.
BK: Well, it’s important.
DZ: Yep, it’s very important.
BK: And here’s why if you don’t do that, everybody’s kind of playing a melody at the same time and it’s just cacophonous.
DZ: It is.
BK: It’s just confusing.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: So you don’t wanna be afraid to make those kind of decisions in a rehearsal and say, “Well, why don’t we do this here for this song?” And not be afraid that you’re gonna offend people just help them understand that we can’t all be playing melody at the same time.
DZ: Yes. Also quickly, there, if I could speak to drummers and acoustic guitar players, you don’t have to play rhythmically the same…
BK: That’s a good point.
DZ: All the time.
BK: Yeah.
DZ: If you have a hi-hat playing 16th notes, the acoustic guitar player doesn’t have to be…
[vocalization]
BK: 16th notes either.
DZ: Yes, yes, yes.
BK: Listening, all… It’s all coming back to listening to each other.
BK: Yeah, yeah.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: So, I wanna talk about the specific, question they both asked. I’m not sure how adding this kind of instrumentation serves congregational singing. And then, the other question was… Yeah. What, can string players do to enhance the congregational scene? God gave us, minds hearts that respond to music in different ways. You’ll see it when in… You listen to soundtracks for movies or when you watch a movie and they’ll use a violin for instance, at a certain moment, and you think now, if they use like a tuba right there, it wouldn’t be the same, or if they used a piano, it wouldn’t be… A piano and violin is different…
DZ: It is, yeah.
BK: Than just piano by itself. Why is that? Well, there are a lot of different reasons, cultural reasons, experiential reasons. What we’re familiar with and what we’re used to, but it does make a difference so what strings can do is they can provide for one, this momentary respite from the rest of the sound and just a reflective and angsty a pensive, rendition of the melody that can reflect the words we’re singings.
DZ: That’s great.
BK: If you’re singing, “Jesus Paid It All” and in the turn, I’m singing here. “Wash it white as snow…”
[vocalization]
BK: You just do have a violin do that melody. Oh yeah, you put a string quartet under that.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: You know, “Jesus Paid It All”, for like a verse or a chorus, it’s just a different feel, it’s a different sound it’s more, I don’t know exactly what you would call it necessarily but it’s moving, it directs you towards the fact that what we’re singing here is significant, it matters. And of course, if you have a good arranger, whether that’s a spontaneous arranger or something that’s been worked out, it can really affect the way those words land on people. So now with a trumpet it’s different trumpet’s gonna play something very different than a violin would play.
DZ: Right.
BK: And I wouldn’t put it, well, I just use a trumpet pensively on a softer song. Which it can be and if you’re gonna use, if you do a mighty fortress… Oh my gosh well that would be fantastic.
DZ: Yeah.
[vocalization]
[laughter]
BK: It’s like regal.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: It’s pronounced. It’s energetic and yeah. Trumpet could be great for that. Does the trumpet need to play on every song? No.
DZ: Yeah, no. Yeah.
BK: So I think in introducing those instrumentalists to your team, you keep these kind of parameters in mind, make it clear up front. We’d love to have you be a part of this. Let me hear how you play, what you can do. And again, if you read notes, well, let, let’s learn how to play by ear.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: It wouldn’t be wrong to put a lead sheet in front of someone, and say, “Just play the melody on like the third verse and the chorus.
DZ: Right. Yeah. It’d be a good way to introduce them into the…
BK: Yeah, yeah.
DZ: Yeah, for sure.
BK: Yes.
DZ: As we’re just talking about all of this, I’m just moved by the creativity of God in instrumentation.
BK: Yes. Yeah.
DZ: We wanna steward that well, and not be distracting but I just love that, that… And it’s gonna be different for cultures.
BK: Yes.
DZ: Different cultures are gonna have different instruments. We’re just talking about what we gather with on Sunday mornings.
BK: Yes. Yes.
DZ: I just, I just see the creativity of God in all the things that we’re doing and there are ways we can use it and steward it well.
BK: Yeah, that really serves the congregation.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: So the, the bottom line is, it’s not an imperative that we include orchestral instruments on Sunday morning. You’re not less than… Your church isn’t less than if you don’t have a full orchestra.
DZ: Right.
BK: And we’re not commanded to use orchestral instruments but there might be ways that we can use them that encourage people’s hearts and enable the Word of Christ to dwell on them more richly. So that’s our job, to figure that out.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And as you know we included a solo instrument, probably, you know, two, three outta four Sundays, some Sundays we won’t have one at all and it’s not like God looks at that and goes, “Oh, man”.
DZ: It’s not full enough. [laughter]
BK: Guys, come on. Otherwise we put ourselves under this burden of always having to have bigger and better and louder, and we don’t see that in Scripture.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: What we see is instruments coming alongside to support faith, filled Christ-exalting Spirit-empowered, singing.
DZ: Amen.
BK: And that’s what we wanna do. And orchestral instruments can be used to do that used sparingly or as a full orchestra they can be used to do that. So, I’d encourage you, John, get those people involved.
DZ: Yeah.
BK: And, just don’t feel like you gotta do it every Sunday could be once a month and just balance their schedules with what you want to do on a Sunday and I think it could really serve the church.
DZ: Yeah. Amen. Absolutely. That’s great.
BK: Well, that’s what we got on Orchestral Instruments on Sunday morning. Thanks for joining us. And we hope you come back.
DZ: Thanks so much.
BK: Thank you for listening to Sound Plus Doctrine. The podcast of Sovereign Grace Music. Sound Plus Doctrine exists to produce Christ exalting songs and training for local churches from local churches. For more information, free sheet music, translations and training resources, you can visit us @sovereigngracemusic.com.
